The Work Wire
SHRM CEO Johnny C. Taylor, Jr. and Bob Goodwin, President at Career Club, host a lively conversation on how the latest news impacts all things work-related.
The Work Wire
The Work Wire - Personal Choices in a Corporate Culture
Can your off-duty escapades lead to a pink slip? Join us in a captivating discussion featuring Johnny C. Taylor Jr., CEO and President of SHRM, as we dissect the case of Joe Gall, a tenured professor dismissed for producing pornographic content. Together, we explore the complexities of First Amendment rights for public sector employees and the potential professional fallout from personal activities. Using a viral incident in Central Park as a cautionary tale, we shine a light on the precarious line between personal freedom and the potential reputational harm to employers.
We unravel the challenging terrain HR navigates when off-duty conduct clashes with company values. From tattoos to language, societal shifts continue to reshape workplace norms, creating gray areas that demand careful consideration. How do organizations maintain their image while fostering diversity and inclusivity? This episode confronts the tensions inherent in these challenges, offering insights into the evolving expectations of workplace culture and the delicate balance companies must strike.
As we shift focus to cultural norms and leadership, we reflect on how unexpected issues within diverse teams can redefine company culture. A controversial interview attire incident ignites a conversation on the need for clear cultural values while embracing diverse perspectives. By examining organizations like Chick-fil-A, known for their defined principles, we explore the benefits of openness in fostering growth and innovation. This episode is a thought-provoking exploration of the continuous evolution of workplace dynamics and the pivotal role of diversity in shaping future leaders.
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Speaker 2:Hey everybody, this is Bob Goodwin, president of Career Club, joined by my good friend, the CEO and president of SHRM, johnny C Taylor Jr, for another episode of the Work Wire, johnny how are you, sir?
Speaker 3:So good to see you man Doing well. How about you?
Speaker 2:I'm doing better than I deserve. But I will tell you one thing, dude we are going where few podcasts dare to go.
Speaker 3:Not your, Joe Rogan. My word no, no, no, no, no. Well, maybe I don't know.
Speaker 2:This one may put us over the top, I don't know. But, johnny, you know, when you first came to me with the idea for this, you wanted to do things that were in the news and things that maybe weren't being covered by you know, other kind of typical HRE sort of podcasts. I think we found one, so we've got the porno professor today. Yes, let me say that more slowly, the porno professor All right. Let me say that more slowly the porno professor All right let me give a little bit of context and we'll be off to the races.
Speaker 2:So in September 2024, so just a few weeks ago the University of Wisconsin at La Crosse dismissed Joe Gall, a tenured communications professor and former chancellor, due to his involvement in producing and appearing in pornographic content with his wife Gow contended that his activities were protected by the First Amendment and did not reference the university, asserting that his dismissal infringed upon his free speech and academic free rights. The university, however, didn't see it that way, and they cited concerns of a reputational damage and violations of employment contracts as grounds for his termination. So here we go, just right, smack dab in the middle of it. It's my right as an American giant do whatever I want, dude. It's my company, not here.
Speaker 3:But this is a tough one and I'm going to tell everyone who's watched this knows I'm a lawyer, a reforming lawyer, so not tendering legal advice or even having a legal opinion, but this is a tough one. It's a tough one if you really think about it in the context of free expression, first Amendment. And he is working for a governmental authority. And a lot of folks say and naively believe that, well, you know, I can say whatever I want with my employer, I have First Amendment rights. Well, the fact of the matter is generally not almost exclusively, not in the private sector, but in government, you actually may have some first you do have First Amendment rights. And so the question becomes does this qualify as a freedom of expression? Da-da-da-da, that would be a First Amendment case which says they can't be abridged or violated or limited by a governmental agency. So I don't know the answer here. What I will say is and the courts are going to sort it. But what I will say is, more broadly, it raises that question about when does my off-duty work impact my job or does it? It raises the question about at what point the behavior that I engaged in is considered reputational harm to my employer. Engaged in is considered reputational harm to my employer, or is it just me? If I don't have any problem with my wife being shown in these compromising positions with me or with anybody, then what's it to you? Isn't that really private? So this is tough and everyone's watching it, because I think it's real clear in private sector and I'm going to name a few examples that this is harder to justify. Public sector is going to be a tough one, the one that I'll give you, for example. So when I hear people say well, you know you should be able to do whatever you want on your free time, how dare the employer tell this guy what to do? Da, da, da, da, gross, icky, not something I would do or want my kid doing, but whatever my parents doing, whatever. But but whatever my parents doing whatever.
Speaker 3:But you could argue. For example, you remember the instance where the woman was fired. She was, I guess, a company executive in the park in New York Central Park when she had the altercation with the black guy and you remember that. Okay. So all of a sudden they fired her and that was clearly off conduct duty. It was her business. Whatever theoretically she said to that man was between him and her. She didn't have on company apparel. She didn't have anything. In fact, you had to figure out who she was, figure out where she worked Like you had to work at this and they nonetheless fired her and said this just doesn't. It harms our reputation, it's not consistent with our culture. Her argument was I wasn't working and their argument was yeah, but you're kind of always representing us.
Speaker 2:That's the argument. So I mean this is such an egregious not to imply right or wrong, but just extreme, maybe that's a better word. Such an egregious, not to imply right or wrong, but just extreme, maybe that's a better word such an extreme thing, I mean there's like many shades of gray before we get all the way to full on.
Speaker 3:Pardon me, did you say full? Was that a play on words?
Speaker 2:Maybe, maybe. But it's like holy moly. I mean like, like, like the fact that we're just sort of going wow, wow, says that this is somewhere on the outer bounds of what you know would would maybe be considered, I don't know what, normal or or acceptable. But those are all kind of value judgments Like, well, that's Bob, that's what you think is normal, that's what you think is like, okay, but the university is saying no, in fact, this does extend to us. How do we know? Because we've got parents who are freaking out going.
Speaker 2:Why is my kid going to a university that allows this kind of thing and it's not private? In one sense, it's very public. Actually, this dude's uploading all this stuff to the internet for anybody that wants to go get to it, and then they've got donors. There's a commercial you know aspect of this beyond students, which is like hey, I'm an alum of your university, I don't want to donate to this. And the university is getting what seems a little pragmatic and it's like yeah, this guy, the juice isn't worth the squeeze. You're an amazing professor, but you're coming at too high of a cost now.
Speaker 3:And so there's the. That's the tension, Right One. Who are they to be the arbiter? I'm going to play devil's advocate, because one, that's what I like to do, but there was a time when allowing Black people to work or women in the workplace was way beyond the bounds of what's acceptable, right One could argue and it's an interesting argument that the body is natural. People having sex, that's how we procreate, that's how children come about. This is not anything, maybe you don't like it.
Speaker 3:And then guess what, if you don't like it, don't watch it. You're getting more and more comfortable. And you know, call it 20 years from now, 30 years, whatever, this won't be a big deal, that's at least. If I were him, that's one of the arguments that I would raise is like yeah, and who are you to tell me what I can do in my own time Something that's natural? It's not illegal, as best I know, because if so, then they would have arrested. Different conversation when the state or the federal government has said something's illegal, right, but this apparently is not. That. This doesn't involve children.
Speaker 3:The other thing that you said that was fascinating was you said parents are calling because their children are being subjected to this. Come on, we know what our children are doing in college. I mean, stop it Time out. I mean stop it Time out. And these aren't children, they're adults. They may be young adults, but 98 percent of children in college, people in college, are over 18. Fair, yeah. So your parent calling in and saying, oh my gosh, my kids. Well, why was your kid watching it? Because they didn't have to watch it at all. They weren't forced to do this.
Speaker 3:So I do think they're really interesting questions and again, I'm being a little provocative here. I had no one reading it and said Johnny's a freak. I'm just saying there are fair arguments that what is normal. We've always pushed the bounds of what is called normal. Right, that's how you make progress. Now, I don't know that I consider this progress personally and you know, bob, you and I talk about this I have the ability to advocate for things that I don't necessarily believe in, because or at least to see the side right I don't understand.
Speaker 2:I don't know that I'm advocating for no-transcript entity, right Like the university or the government or whatever, and I'm saying that we've. We believe that this kind of thing does reputational damage. This does brand damage to us because now we're in social media, the Wall Street Journal's covering this and none of this feels like it's redounding to us with a lot of glory, so we kind of prefer to not be associated with this anymore. If another company doesn't care, go with them.
Speaker 3:That's exactly it, bob, you know. Another one is do you remember in my lifetime I never, ever, ever would have envisioned a world where companies would have been okay with people smoking marijuana, I mean. And so it hasn't been a long time since that would have been behavior that people said was way outside of norm. You can smoke a cigarette, but you can't smoke marijuana because that's illegal. And so, again, I'm not advocating for this or even likening them. I'm making the case that this is. Maybe he's on the very he's what we call a frontiersman, I mean literally in this, and maybe that's where people in.
Speaker 3:But I will different question around private employers. Listen, private employers can largely dictate the terms and conditions of employment, as you know, in the the law right. So there's one or two exceptions, but generally speaking, that's how things work in the United States. So the employer can say you're out. We don't really even have to explain that we think this is damaging our brand. You actually have the ability. As long as you don't violate on race, gender, national origin, the protected classes, the employer actually doesn't have to give you a reason at all.
Speaker 3:I think this is a little more complicated. Is you have a professor? And for those of you in the private sector, oftentimes the professors, not exclusively, but oftentimes they have tenure, and so this is sort of a contractual obligation of the university not to fire them. And, as we also know, in higher education, we do want the faculty to push the limits. We want them to right. That's what you want. That's where new knowledge, that's where knowledge comes from, is not accepting the status quo but being willing to do it. And so they have this thing called tenure, which complicates his situation. Right, he's likely tenured. The faculty says we're supposed to be able to express ourselves and delve into all sorts of things, and so he's doing it. But that's that. I think you're right. Those of you who are in higher ed, the COPA people on the you got it. You know there's a whole different world that contracts with issues of. But in private sector, yeah, just fire him, and you don't actually have to explain why. If one of my employees was doing a what's that site call now?
Speaker 3:Oh gosh, come on, you know it don't. I was hoping you'd give up what's the say out of your browser history. I don't really, but if one of my employees was engaging in a porn business call it that I would say you can't work here, period. I actually don't even have to tell you why you can't work here, as long as it's not race, national or, like I just say, or gender or whatever. Like I just say, this is not going to work. Ok, you're my.
Speaker 2:CHRO. I'm the CEO and we find out that you know Brian's over there doing what Brian's doing, and we find out that you know Brian's over there doing what Brian's doing, and it's like holy cow and I'm like Johnny like I know that this is employment at will. I know that if I want to let Brian go, I can Right, but should we? Yeah? What does this say about us one way or the other, if we tolerate this or if we don't tolerate this?
Speaker 3:Yeah, bob, there is no answer to should we? That's what I love about HR it's gray, and in that gray is some beauty. Can you? Yes, should you is very much tied to the culture of the organization. Yes, should you is very much tied to the culture of the organization. That's why you got to be careful about the words that you use when you say we want everyone, we want you to bring your authentic self to work.
Speaker 2:Really.
Speaker 3:Really Right the claim I'm on site, right Right, so you got to be really careful. I think that companies are now smartly making clear their culture is one where there's just these, there's decency things that you do off outside of work. Clearly, outside of work that impact us reputationally just isn't good. We work too hard to build.
Speaker 2:I am the steward of this company and if I perceive that this is doing net damage to our company, our employees, our investors, the customers we serve, the community that we operate in.
Speaker 3:You're out, you have to be out, well. But so here's something that I was really so. I never forget it. You and I may have talked about this, if not on the work, while we talked about it somewhere it's like. So go back in the day. And this is where employers have to figure out what they're going to be. They talk about their reputation.
Speaker 3:So if you're at January 6th, we're at Charlottesville, even if you weren't seen doing anything, I'm going to fire you. If you were marching during Black Lives Matter and violence occurred around you, you weren't doing it, but it was around you I don't fire you. These are the tensions, because how and where does this stop Off-duty conduct and reputational damage? And if you and I'm going, I'm going to continue down this path. We're a wholesome family company, we're a blockbuster and you're married to a man. If you're a man, or married to a woman or a transsexual, like what you could. That's the problem with these arguments, now that that area, the last example, the last maybe race or gender, protected sexual orientation, et cetera, or gender, protected sexual orientation, et cetera. But my point is you get from going like. You really could, as an employer, argue that if you don't live in this little box and that the perfect little nuclear family, traditional family life, that that impacts my company's reputation. Where does that end? That's an interesting and arguably specious position to take.
Speaker 2:I think I would agree. Another example I was thinking of is a few years ago, if you went into Starbucks or a restaurant and the barista had tattoos, they would have some kind of a sleeve thing. They're like yeah, tattoos, we don't do tattoos here because that's pretty edgy and we don't really want to be associated with people who have tattoos. So, if you don't mind, cover them up. And now it's like you do, mine don't work. And now it's like completely not even noteworthy, like Johnny, you won't believe, I saw this lady at Starbucks with tattoos. Can you believe it? Like nobody would say that.
Speaker 3:But I got to tell you, bob, that's a really interesting one. There are a lot of people who will say that I've heard people interview people for candidates for companies and say she walked in with a nope not doing it. So I actually have seen that I've heard In 2024? Nope, not doing it. So I actually have seen that. I've heard. In 2024, now, not in a retail shop, I mean, but remember, if that's Starbucks's culture, then it's good. They have said that's okay.
Speaker 3:But in 2024, there absolutely are companies that say listen, I've seen a ton of them where they were in financial services. You wear suits every day. You show up your hair's not all over your head. You don't wear pink stripes down the middle of your head. There are, and again, we are all filled with our own judgment about how the world works and what is normal and what's not normal. I do think and so we've gone through a whole bunch of things I think we should level back at this one's. As tough as it is. Intellectually, I think there's a case to be managed through the courts, but I think the reasonable person would say you probably crossed the line. I think so. I think in private sector, like yeah, I just can't see my vice president of finance running a side business where they sell porn, like with their spouse.
Speaker 2:I mean this is over the top. Your earlier point the goal line moves over time and what people are like you know. Oh my gosh, can you believe you? As a society? You know we get desensitized to things. Look at the language on television.
Speaker 3:Oh, I was going to bring that up, okay.
Speaker 2:You know before you'd be like oh my gosh. And now it's like people saying um and like you don't even pay attention to it. It's like my wife is watching shows on Netflix that like I'm stunned that she's putting up with that, because the wife that raised our kids like we didn't watch Power Rangers because it was too violent.
Speaker 3:Well, but that's a really good point that I'm so glad you got to, bob, and it's this idea that there's culture within a business. But what I call big culture, a big C culture, is society. So we really have moved the goalposts. Language Now people use the F word in the workplace and that was never acceptable under any set.
Speaker 3:That was considered aberrant behavior, right, not cool, not professional, and people just use it, people everything, and it's partly because they've been desensitized in the broader culture, like and. So now let's go back to this topic. What is porn? Like the stuff they used to bleep out, like the stuff they used to bleep out. Now the scenes and some of the things that kids can watch on TV are really, really close to soft porn, if not hard porn, and under 20 years ago it would have been deemed hard porn. Right, we are moving. That's why I don't think it's so far fetched to say 20 years from now.
Speaker 3:One might look back at this and say it really could happen, given how we've seen this course of adoption in the big C culture and what we in the workplace, we in HR practitioners, doing, are trying to figure this all out, like we're really trying to figure it out. I saw I mentioned to you once on one of our episodes the young lady who wore shorts to an interview and was off-put by the idea that she would be asked to go home and change before she met. So the talent acquisition HR professional said like you, you're a great candidate. So we didn't dismiss you. We just said yeah, but before you go see the hiring manager, I would suggest that you come back dressed more appropriately.
Speaker 3:The young lady had a meltdown and basically said I don't need this job, I'm not doing it. And then when all of the social media and vilified the company to suggest so the norms have the goalposts. I like the way you said they're just changing and they're changing, I would have bet you money five years ago, three years ago, that that would be a non-story, that overwhelmingly people would say young lady, get it together. You do dress properly for an interview. I was shocked at the number of people who came to her defense. I was shocked.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then you know with. You. Know as what do we have seven generations in the workforce now? Six, six, six, six. Maybe. Know as what do we have seven generations in the workforce now Six, six six and maybe seven not too far away is.
Speaker 2:I mean, you've just got people that their vision of culture with a big C looks real different than somebody else's definition of what their culture with a big C looks like and how a company is trying to manage their little C culture with. Back to our word diversity, right, and it's like dude, what are you freaking out about? Versus oh my gosh, what have we let in the front door and everything in between. And so that is where a company I think does need to say at some, whatever their line is, that's okay for big C, we're not there yet and it's like okay, then don't work here. That's all you're saying is don't work here, and there's 10 million other companies you can go work at, so that's cool.
Speaker 3:But it won't be here, and you know so. I'll give you an example, just using a company that I'm a big fan of, is Chick-fil-A. Well, let's be clear. You would not work at Chick-fil-A if one of their executives was out producing porn and it just wouldn't happen, period. You have a right to do that because it's not illegal, but you're not working here.
Speaker 3:So they're crystal clear about their values, and it goes back to what we talk about a lot. Be clear about what your culture is, what your values are, and people can choose to be there or not, but you can't bend. You have to be Now. That doesn't mean over time, you can't keep up with the times, but when you say, these are the boundaries, these are the boundaries and that's it, and I love companies that have all of this cultural clarity. I talk about that a lot of time. Just be clear about what it is, and you don't one set of rules for one group of people, another set of rules for another. No, no, this is who we are and we will live these values, these guiding principles, if you work here and I say one of the things that's really important not only during nine to five or the four walls or whatever. You're going to live them outside of here in some ways. In other words, I don't think the same behavior if the employer were Chick-fil-A that they would tolerate it after hours either. It just wouldn't happen.
Speaker 2:That I agree with. The point I was going to make is building on your cultural listen. We continue to grow, right, because that it's in concrete, it can't ever change. It's, you know, heresy to ever, you know, change our take on something. I mean, that's called growth in some ways right, and it's good to listen. You know you talked about being devil's advocate, at least causing people to think of something from another perspective that you hadn't considered, and so you might have a really strong let's use your marijuana example. You might have a really strong point of view, because marijuana is for dope fiends and it's a gateway drug, and you know, you're just a weird hippie. That's my impression of what someone who uses cannabis is. Wait a minute, this is good for your mother and her dementia. I had no idea. Because marijuana is bad? Well, maybe, but maybe not. But if you never listen, you're never going to know, and so I do think Finish that, because I've got to jump in there.
Speaker 2:But it's just this, you know, constantly being in a listening mode and being open to another perspective, because that is what learning is. Learning is now. I know something I didn't know five seconds ago and that should and does color how I see the world and therefore the actions that I would take as an individual, as a company, go ahead.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so it's. I get you, but I. What worries me at that is that worries is a big word. What is what? What gives me pause is do you know there are legitimate articles written about the possible benefits of porn. It's like really interesting, like there are in advance of this. I was like, looking at it it's. There are really people who argue that porn can be a way to escape reality and live out one's fantasies while in a safe, nonjudgmental environment, those sorts of things, that this ultimately leads to innovation. Remember the article that you and I, we talked about it. The companies that what was that? Synthetic drug or whatever that?
Speaker 2:you said yeah, yeah, psychedelics.
Speaker 3:Psychedelics. There is an argument that all of this stuff could be cool and that's what. Like you're right, but yeah, but no. Like you were pushing back. You're like I get it, but uh-uh, and so yeah. But I worry that as we have these conversations and as employers wrestle with this, I think it's more important because there can always be made a compelling case To your point about marijuana. I can show you the benefits of it. I can also show you a weed head who's useless and can't do work, and I can do that. I think I'm increasingly seeing the importance of people getting in touch with their true sexuality, and porn is not a bad thing and therefore it unleashes their best selves at work. Like I can't believe, as I say it.
Speaker 2:That's gonna be the soundbite that we promote. Here's what Johnny says.
Speaker 3:But you know what I mean. So I do think we have to be careful about this idea that we should keep up with the big C, because I'm not sure that a lot of what happens in the big C culture is good for the workplace.
Speaker 2:Yes and yes and that is true and we have to weigh the body of evidence as we understand it right. But again, for me and I feel like I'm you for a second first base is listening right and empathy and trying to understand. But now that I've taken in the information, I still get to make a decision. Like well, even in light of that, I still kind of net out where I was before you said what you said. But the other part that I was going to suggest is the thing with big C is ultimately that's where you're drawing workers from and you have to be a relevant employer?
Speaker 2:Yep, and again, culture is not monolithic. It has got many, many, many many. You know stratifications in it. You know that we just got through seeing in the election, for example, like there's not a monolithic voter any more than there's a monolithic culture. But things do fall more into the main over time and if I want to be drawing from that talent pool, I at least need to understand where they're coming from and values change over time.
Speaker 3:And the question is you're really talking about reconciling big C, little c. That's what we're trying to do. Big C is evolving and it's pushing. A media has always pushed the envelope. The question is how much are you willing to have that pushed envelope? Play up and show up in your workplace? That's the question.
Speaker 3:Even in Big C, for example, people throw around words that you and I would never tolerate them doing in the workplace, the B, the N word, the da-da-da-da-da, like those words are thrown around, and so maybe you can normalize it at home watching television, but you will not bring this to my workplace period. So I do think that, and I think that's appropriate, it's not that the workplace is so prudish, it's just that it's not the, it's not professional. Which gets back to this topic Do you want professors who are engaging in the porn business? Probably not, and that's just choose another. Well, they have another profession.
Speaker 2:Oh goodness.
Speaker 3:But that did. Oh, you got me OK, so. So yeah, that that's what it is I think we're trying to. We've overly simplified. Well, if big C is moving, then little C within your company has to move, and I don't know that they agree with that.
Speaker 2:So again, this is one of those things, like you said, that it's the beauty of HR is there's a lot of gray, and that's what makes the workwire fun is kind of playing in the gray. That's a good tagline.
Speaker 3:I could go so many places with that. I'm not with you today, okay.
Speaker 2:So you're blushing, bob. The point I want to make, I think, is that the diversity of the workforce is going to continue to bring situations to leadership. Bring situations to leadership, in particular to HR professionals, that maybe you weren't anticipating. But if shows like this help you start to think about, anticipate and be able to shape the culture that you want to have at your company, then we've done a net good to at least start to get you stimulate your thinking around different topics that you may not have considered that's right and that that's the purpose of this.
Speaker 3:All you, you, you nail that nice, nice, all right, okay thank you, dear listener.
Speaker 2:Thank you, johnny c taylor.
Speaker 1:Thank you hope you have a great day weekend go work hard.
Speaker 2:Come on on All right Talk to you soon.
Speaker 1:Take care. Check out careerclub for personalized help with your job search. Visit shrmorg to become part of the largest human resources organization worldwide.
