The Work Wire
SHRM CEO Johnny C. Taylor, Jr. and Bob Goodwin, President at Career Club, host a lively conversation on how the latest news impacts all things work-related.
The Work Wire
The Work Wire - Matthew Perry
The tragic death of actor Matthew Perry sparks a compelling exploration of power dynamics in celebrity circles, with a spotlight on ego, charisma, and wealth. In this thought-provoking episode of WorkWire, I sit down with Johnny C. Taylor Jr., president and CEO of SHRM, to dissect these intricate relationships and their consequences. Through Perry's unfortunate overdose and the involvement of his assistant, Kenneth Iwamasa, we reveal the often unseen struggles of those who navigate the professional realm alongside powerful figures. Discover the critical importance of psychological safety and mental health in environments where fame and influence reign supreme.
Our conversation takes a turn toward the ethical responsibilities that come with power, challenging leaders to consider their moral obligations when harmful behaviors are enabled. Johnny and I discuss the courage it takes to confront inappropriate actions and the essential role leaders play in setting and maintaining ethical standards. Whether in celebrity contexts or traditional workplaces, this episode underscores the weight of accountability and the profound impact leaders have on organizational culture.
We wrap up by examining the complexities of maintaining integrity in the face of ethical dilemmas. The episode delves into scenarios that test personal values and the necessity of empathy and constructive feedback in addressing unethical behavior. We advocate for accountability partners as a means of fostering personal growth and ethical conduct, emphasizing the significance of an empathetic approach to creating healthier work environments. Join us in this deep dive into the heart of power dynamics, accountability, and the pursuit of ethical leadership.
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Bob Goodwin:This is Bob Goodwin, president of Career Club, joined by my good friend, president and CEO of SHRM, Johnny C Taylor Jr. Johnny, so good to see you.
Johnny C. Taylor, Jr.:Great to see you, my friend. Hey welcome to another episode of the Work Wire. We've got a good topic today. We always have good topics, that's a fair point.
Bob Goodwin:It's going to start off a little sad, actually, but I think it's going to take us to a good place. It's certainly an instructive place, so I'm going to guess that most of our listeners and viewers will be familiar with the show Friends. That had an incredible 236 episode run. That's incredible, so the people really genuinely feel like they were part of their family for the years that that show ran. Tragically, a year ago, october 2023, one of the stars, matthew Perry, who played the role of Chandler, died and was found dead in a tub at his home from a drug overdose, and what's since happened is that fingers are being pointed as to who is responsible for this from an enabling perspective.
Bob Goodwin:So as of the time of recording this, you're kind of in early September, five people, including two doctors and Matthew Perry's assistant, who we'll talk about in a second, have been charged in connection with Perry's death. The charges were announced by federal prosecutors in August. There's a trial date. Three of the five defendants, including one of the doctors, have signed plea agreements, so they're admitting some level of culpability in this. But the drug, ketamine, was the primary cause of his death. So what we'll use as kind of the backdrop for some of this is Matthew Perry's personal assistant I'm going to botch his name, I'm sure Kenneth Iwamasa played a significant role in the actor's tragic death. Federal authorities alleged that Iwamasa administered multiple doses of ketamine to Perry, including on the day he died. Iwamasa, who worked for Perry for over 25 years, admitted to injecting the actor without proper medical training. Although he's been charged with conspiracy to distribute, legal experts suggest he may be the least culpable, as his actions were part of a larger network of people influencing Matthew Perry.
Bob Goodwin:So where I was hoping that we could go with this is there is a lot to be said about the power dynamics of a boss, subordinates, the power of ego, the kind of influence and charisma money can have on an individual, on an organization and particularly the people that work closely with that leader. So what I'm hoping we can unpack here a little bit is some of the power dynamics, blurring of personal and professional boundaries. Yeah, psychological safety. Like hey, I, I don't feel good about doing this anymore. I need to say something, um, obviously, with matthew perry mental health.
Bob Goodwin:He he was, you know, been interviewed many, many times acknowledging he's an addict. He's the kind of guy that can't have one drink because one leads to 10. And he knew that about himself. And so I think that there's a lot that if we kind of just peel past the People magazine cover of this story and kind of look at the organizational and interpersonal dynamics between leaders and the folks who work for them, that we may see more of our workplace than meets the eye initially. But what's sort of your initial reaction to the story and kind of some of these angles, johnny?
Johnny C. Taylor, Jr.:Well, your prelude to it was that this is going to end in a bright place. And I'm like, really, how could? After that intro, Because seriously there are so many thorny issues. Well, you know, I spent the beginning of my career in the media, right, I was a Viacom for seven and a half years and it's a unique and different industry, not unlike anything that involves celebrity, be they television, you know movies, performers, you know singers, athletes there's this thing where everyone is drawn to wanting to be a part of that. It's literally. I mean, I can't tell you the number of people who would near work for free at Viacom's divisions of Paramount Pictures and MTV and Nickelodeon because it was the place to want to work, and most young people are drawn into it because it's a cool job. Right, it may not pay well, it may not go anywhere.
Johnny C. Taylor, Jr.:You go into an environment, as you've alluded to, where the power dynamic is. They don't hide it, you know it. These people matter and these people don't. And the people who don't, their entire purpose in the whole world is to make the give and make the people who matter happy at all times. They know that going in the door. I can tell you I was at Viacom for a significant amount of time and you get the gig. So that's where it becomes really interesting, because somehow it's a little different when someone is sort of coerced into a gig or you know, but you choose to come into that environment and you choose them.
Johnny C. Taylor, Jr.:I'm thinking about the person who was Michael Jackson's physician, for example, who you know famously was convicted, and I don't know if he pleaded guilty or was convicted, but the point is he went to jail. People, everyone wants to be near the star power and the fear that they will somehow lose that connection is as addictive as the drug that the person in power is utilizing. So it's a really sad story on both sides, right. I know some really famous people who would love to have friends around them who would be honest with them and to call them out and be their accountability partners, but those people are far. They're just hard to find them because everyone wants to be connected to Oprah or to you know what I mean, Right? So it's just a real tough thing. Would you be totally honest with someone who, if it meant you would somehow be taken out of the inner circle?
Bob Goodwin:Yeah, so being around, power, influence, right, celebrity, as you're saying, I mean, those are things that are very, very attractive to people. I'm repeating what you said but at the same time and maybe this is the peeling it back a little bit is you know, if you genuinely care about that person? You know, and maybe there's that's offset. Maybe I'm creating a false choice here, you know, maybe there's that's offset by maybe I'm creating a false, you know, choice here. You know, care versus fear, but both of those could coexist, I, I assume, very easily.
Announcement:but you know, I guess you would hope that it's.
Bob Goodwin:It's like and maybe the people did say, matthew, you gotta stop doing this man like you're gonna, you're gonna kill yourself from doing this and say, yeah, yeah, yeah, but I still want what I want and you know, it's kind of the as you said, that's kind of the gig here. So what do you want to do?
Johnny C. Taylor, Jr.:Well, can I Bob? You know it's interesting because I think you you pose a really interesting question. Is it that you care for the person or you fear them, or is it both, or fear losing the gig? I was going to add the fourth one is not the person. It's that point that I made of I could be out of here and then what? And I value that more.
Johnny C. Taylor, Jr.:So in some ways and this walk with me maybe you're the bad person and thus the criminal culpability, like you knew what you were doing. You know you're not a medical professional. You know you should not be, no matter what, providing injecting medication into someone. You know this. I mean, you don't have to have any formal education to know right from wrong. But you fundamentally did it.
Johnny C. Taylor, Jr.:So the question is, why Did the person force you to do it? Or were you fearful that if you didn't, someone else would do it and then you would be no longer there? So it's a really, and you know. So I struggle with the accountability here. I know right from wrong and no matter what workplace context you're in, there's always a power dynamic. This is a famous person to a not famous person, but if you're a Walmart store manager and you are an entry-level employee who needs that job to feed her three children. The power dynamic is as real. You need the job, but the court is not going to allow you to make decisions that you know are violative of the law and use the excuse of I needed the job.
Bob Goodwin:Because there's a number of ways we can go with this. One would be whistleblowing, basically, like you know the right thing to do, you doing it right? And if not, why not? Um, what I think about in an everyday context is okay matthew perry is super famous, michael jackson super famous but you know, everybody's world is only as big as it is right. So if I work at xyz company and jul Julie is like the most important person in our company, she's the most important person on my team, I mean it's no bigger than that.
Bob Goodwin:Those power dynamics are still in play. That's right. And so whether it's enabling, you know, because then we start just looking at like she's kind of mean to people, she's intolerant of people, all the way to sexual harassment, you know doing lack of integrity and business dealings, like all these same dynamics are in play Right, just on a smaller scale, but they feel the same, they are the same Subordinate, right. And so I guess I'd love to just unpack that with you a little bit in a way that's relatable to, I suspect, a lot of listeners. What do we do when we're in this power dynamic? And for whatever reason either I know she's's got a drinking problem as an example, because we've been on business trips together and she, you know, overindulges. How do we do?
Johnny C. Taylor, Jr.:that.
Bob Goodwin:Like how do we find the right way of having these difficult conversations, knowing that they could go sideways pretty quickly?
Johnny C. Taylor, Jr.:Well, so you and I talked about the C word culture, and that's at the root of all of this, which is a little different when you're talking a personal services contract. The assistant to Matthew Perry works for one person, and one person only. My guess is, matthew Perry didn't have an HR department in his life department right.
Johnny C. Taylor, Jr.:So, as famous as he was, there was not in place the infrastructure. So, in the world that most of our listeners overwhelmingly live in, this ultimately comes down to what is the organization's culture? Is one person so important that they are allowed to do anything and the organization will turn a collective eye? The industry, media altogether? That's why we had a Weinstein. That's how that was allowed to occur.
Johnny C. Taylor, Jr.:Even when there was a full infrastructure legal department, hr department, et cetera no one would call that situation on the carpet right. That's a culture problem we have decided in the language of Wall Street. He or she is too big to fail Because they already understand that they're fungible. And it becomes crystal clear then that if you allow John or Mary to sexually harass you because they're in control, that is a bad thing. It's a bad thing for society, it's bad for the employees, it's bad for the CEO or the leader. So we ultimately have to solve this by. You hear me talk about cultural clarity a lot, but being really clear within organizations about what our cultural norms are, what will be tolerated and won't be tolerated, and it usually when you get into the shady and gray area of ethics. It's sometimes not even when it's illegal. It's just immoral or unethical, and we have to be clear with our employees about what kind of organization this is.
Bob Goodwin:Well, you know. Back to the C word. You talk about culture, as this is how things actually get done, and it's not really the employee manual or the posters on the wall or anything else. If we turn a blind eye to something, we turn a blind eye to something. That's.
Johnny C. Taylor, Jr.:But, bob, I will say there is. You know I talk a lot and you know this is you and I do this a lot, but accountability on let's call it the Matthew Perry side. He knew that he was putting this person in a compromised position as well. Whitney Houston, notoriously, was known for having people obtain her drugs for her. You know what you're doing and, yes, blame is there. I'd love you, because normally this is a position you take whenever we have these conversations, my friend, which is why I love.
Johnny C. Taylor, Jr.:What about the culpability of the employee? Who knows right from wrong? Who knows that I am not a phlebotomist, like I don't know. I'm not trained to do this at all. So what am I putting a needle in someone's arm for when I know I could kill them? And I know this person has publicly said they are sick and I'm actually. You know I'm making this happen. I watched this show. I know we don't advertise for people's shows, but the 600-pound life, my 600-pound life You're so big you can't get up and go buy the food. Someone, oftentimes in your home, is enabling this. What about the accountability on the other side, bob, putting it back to you?
Bob Goodwin:No, no, I would agree that there is a lot of accountability on that side of the equation. Most of what we're talking about are not questionable. I mean, in the 600-pound life example, food in that case is poison, that's right. I mean in the 600 pound life example, food in that case is poison, that's right, right. I mean they are overdoing that and it's going to kill them and everybody knows that, right, right. And that's where I get back to you know, and again, it's probably a false dichotomy, but care versus fear. So I'm doing this for my brother because he's in a lot of pain emotionally, which is why he overeats. So, yeah, I go to McDonald's and buy 10 Big Macs and bring them over every day.
Bob Goodwin:I'm making that up, and so somehow I have rationalized and that's probably the next word here is rationalization, and Rick Warren has a great expression that rationalize is telling ourselves rational lies. I love that, I love that, never heard that and I'm properly giving the citation to him. But that is, I think, oftentimes what happens either hey, this will go away, this will blow over, this isn't going to be forever Maybe we'll be able to talk her out of it over time or you know what I got to do? What I got to do because I've got kids at home, I've got to pay my bills, and so I got to do what I got to do. There is the gravity of again in the case of celebrity, but celebrities in the eyes of the beholder, sure.
Bob Goodwin:Again you know, people in very run-of-the-mill companies are celebrities at their companies because of whatever position they occupy. But for the worker, just I want to answer your question directly is? It does come down to your values, who you are, and you know the. The courage is the next word, the courage to do what you believe is the right thing to do. And I'm with you that I suspect that Mr Iwamasa knew that injecting him with ketamine was not in Matthew Perry's best interest, but chose to do it anyway. So, yeah, there's culpability there, I believe, and I think that each of us as individuals have to look ourselves in the mirror and say who am I? Who do I want to be?
Bob Goodwin:And is this consistent with who I want to be, my self-image, and you know again, not to. You know cast dispersions at people and you know point out the speck of dust in somebody else's eye when I've got a log in mind. But at the same time people know in a lot of cases what Harvey Weinstein was doing was wrong. There's no black or white.
Bob Goodwin:It is what it is, you know, and shooting somebody up with drugs. But again, I do believe that if we worked at a run of the mill company and we saw a boss who you know would drop F bombs and curse people out and just, you know, just berating people, right, and we, that's, you know, that's kind of how Bob is, you know, like he's a big producer, he's the CEO of the company. So we, you know, like at some point you're watching this person harm other people or themselves, and I think we have to have the courage to call it out. We have to have the empathy to help somebody if they want help, right. But at the end of the day, we have to have the courage of our convictions to do the right thing. I called it out, I tried to work on a solution. That goes in two ways Either they wanted to find a solution or they didn't. And if they don't, then I have to look myself in the mirror and say why am I here?
Johnny C. Taylor, Jr.:And that's where it and I hate to cut to the chase on these things, but at the end of the day, we all have it's your phrase because they're the most important plant supervisor in a town of 10,000 people and they're the big employer. That's the world I have. But you've got to own that Now. That being said, and I'm going to flip now to the other side, which is but we do have an obligation, Leadership carries with it responsibility. We do have an obligation, Leadership carries with it responsibility.
Johnny C. Taylor, Jr.:And leaders have an obligation not to take advantage of people who have limited never would say no other options, but have limited options. So they are kind of in a bind. And I know, in the corporate world you could excuse all day a woman or man, for this matter, who succumbs to a quid pro quo sexual relationship to keep his or her job, and I could judge them. But if and they do own some of that because you choose to engage in behavior but if I have to tip the scales, it's against the leader, because the leader has the power that you started with, this power dynamic, and ultimately they have more leverage. Even if it's by a small number, it's a significant enough leverage to tip the scales against them, and that's where we, as organizational HR leaders and other business leaders, have to start with being real clear about the ethical norms, the values of the organization, and then hold each other accountable.
Bob Goodwin:Yeah, and then maybe that's one thing because of our audience in large measure is, if I'm an HR professional right, so you know I'm more potentially an observer of something like you know, like this is what's going on in the sales department or going on over in finance. How can we as HR leaders, practitioners, professionals, intercede in those kinds of situations to help affect a better outcome.
Johnny C. Taylor, Jr.:So I've talked on the work choir about this a lot. I think there are three Cs characteristics that make a very strong HR leader, whether their title is CHRO or if it's HR manager in a small organization, whatever, and it's competency, courage and confidant. That confidant that last C is so important. All of us who've been in HR roles, and especially if you've been in a senior role, has seen someone at a senior level operate in a less than positive way. But if you are deemed a confidant, if you have trust that big word T you can actually pull that person to the side the manager, and say, hey, bob, mary, you're the CEO, you're the general manager, you're the partner, whatever you are.
Johnny C. Taylor, Jr.:I observed this and I don't think you're a bad person. Maybe you are, but I don't think you're a bad person. Maybe you are, but I don't think you're a bad person, but the behavior that you're exhibiting right now is bad. So one my job is to bring it to your attention because it could be that he or she is totally unaware of how they are showing up and the impact of what they're doing. Hard to believe, but it literally is. There are people who just are unaware of it and we need to bring them to that awareness.
Johnny C. Taylor, Jr.:And then, secondly, it's not enough to just tell someone. It's like telling someone who overeats, stop eating Duh. No, it's like you also are going to have to help them, and I've worked with executives before where I've said let me tell you what I am witnessing. We have a relationship. I want to be honest with you and tell you what I'm seeing non-judgmentally. But don't you want to be better than that? Because of the responsibility of leadership, let me help you, let me be your accountability partner. When I see it, I'm going to call you out because the subordinate of yours is afraid to. They need this job. The power dynamic is such that they will never tell you, because sometimes the response is well, if you see me doing something wrong, just tell me, I don't know. It doesn't work that way. And so that's where that confidant nature, that relationship and trust that you have to have as an HR professional becomes your best and most valuable currency.
Bob Goodwin:Okay, and can you say your three C's again, competence.
Johnny C. Taylor, Jr.:So competency You've got to start out being competent in HR. You've got to know that something actually violates the law or is unethical before you can even identify it. And then this idea of having the courage you spoke to it, the courage of confronting it. But no matter how courageous you are and know how competent you are, if you don't have a relationship where I can walk into your office and say, hey, Bob, can we talk? This is what I'm seeing and it's bad, Then we don't go anywhere. So you need all three of those to be a really strong and effective HR partner.
Bob Goodwin:Yeah, so that's awesome. I want to for people who may not have completely followed what you're saying back on agency for a minute, which I hope helps infuse some of the courage that people need in this is the idea is is that you ultimately always have control of your attitude and your actions. Nobody can take that away from you, but you can give it to other people and we do that, but they can. You're so kind of like the devil made me do it. Well, no, like nobody can take that agency away from you, but you can give it to them. The good news is is you can always take it back. If you've slid into giving your control away to somebody else, you can always take it back.
Johnny C. Taylor, Jr.:So can I jump in here right there, because to that point this is kind of where I started with the gentleman who worked for Matthew Perry. He essentially did give his agency away. Yes, yeah, yeah.
Bob Goodwin:Yeah, a hundred percent. And, and you know we can this is another little Bob-ism. Just because you can explain it, doesn't excuse it. I love it. Yes, so, so.
Bob Goodwin:So, for some very good reasons and understandable reasons, he could have been operating in some form of fear, but it could have been the glamour aspect of it or some soup of a bunch of different things.
Bob Goodwin:All true, he's still putting a needle in the guy's arm and that's not okay. Right, again, I want to just continue to kind of put this down into a non-Hollywood, non-celebrity level for people, because we all have probably dealt with this or will deal with this at some level, whether we're the leader or not. Is that it's incumbent upon the subordinate in this case to say what he or she sees and to be true to your values. You know, I know, that there's risk associated with that, but I suspect for most people, at the end of the day, regret will trump risk and it's like I could have done the right thing. I should have done the right thing, I didn't, and that's a really lousy place to find yourself, because we can't unwind the clock. What we can do is have the courage of our convictions to live the life of integrity that we all want to believe, that we have.
Bob Goodwin:But you know the way I think about integrity is you only know it when it's called into question? Easy to claim, hard to prove that part, that part.
Johnny C. Taylor, Jr.:No, it's a really. I'm so glad we're talking about this because it's tough. I mean you also acknowledge that Matthew was a sick man. Yeah, and, as I said, I look on the other side and said you know, you knew this person was in trouble. The people who were closest to Whitney Houston, I'm told, knew she was in trouble. She couldn't help herself. If you're sick, you're sick, and therefore it's bigger than you know.
Johnny C. Taylor, Jr.:I can't do this because it's not good for me. I can't do it because it's not good for that person and I know it's not. And so that's where this gets really complicated. But to your point, stardom, fine Celebrity, got it, but in real life it is not good for a married plant manager to be cheating on his wife with everyone in the workforce. This is not good for anyone.
Johnny C. Taylor, Jr.:It could lead to incidents of violent workplace violence, like it's just a mess. And so we have to step back and say you must do this, even if you prefer the path of least resistance, which is to ignore it, because that always turns into something not good for you and everyone else involved. So it is that conviction that you referred to, that competence of conviction, and the idea that you just have to say we're better than this. But I do want to tackle one other part of this whole conversation, and that is what happens yes, it's pretty clear when the acts that are engaged in are illegal, either civilly illegal in the case of Title VII, violations that may yield to result in a penalty, a financial penalty for fine or prison. But what about the unethical dilemmas, the things that don't quite rise to the level of legal consequence but that create really uncomfortable and unfavorable. Power dynamic driven work.
Bob Goodwin:Yeah, telling people. Yeah, kind of thinking about that earlier when we were talking about you know what I'll call a tyrant, kind of a boss, right who's? You know swearing and berating people, and you know what would commonly be known as a toxic work environment. Right, again, I think the playbook is the same. The context is a little bit different, but to your point, you know, hey, bob, you know you may not have noticed this, but in in the meeting, mary left in tears Like she was devastated by the way that you were talking and she felt attacked, blah, blah, blah, like call it out and what Bob chooses to do with that. You know, and even making a suggestion, I think next time you know what might have been a more helpful approach is X. Okay, great. So you know, problem and solution, not just identifying the problem. But to me it all kind of gets back to the same thing, which is, I've identified it, I have brought it up in a constructive. We didn't know that you were coming across this way, but the way that it was received was like this. I know how it made me feel, so I didn't have to project onto somebody else. Okay, then we're back to agency on the other person's part. That's right. I don't care Like. This is how I was raised. This is how I grew up in business. This worked on me. It's going to work on other people.
Bob Goodwin:I had a client, a coaching client, uh, this week. Say that one of the things that they've had to learn across their career it does turn out to be around, uh, language was he grew up in like a locker room motivation culture. That that's right. That worked for him when he was 25, you know, as a guy and growing up in sports, like he was used to it, that worked on him. He's like well, it worked on me, that'll work on everybody else, not so. And people had to come to him and say, tim, I don't know what you're doing, but that is not working for people. And he was like I didn't realize that because it worked for me, I assume it worked for other people.
Bob Goodwin:Confronting people with respect, civilly, providing real facts of what's been observed and making a suggestion on what improvement might look like At the end of the day. That's on that person if they want to take that feedback or not and what they do with it. So your point around it's not illegal, but it's not good at some level Right Again. I'll just go back. I think the playbook is still essentially the same, just with different consequences.
Johnny C. Taylor, Jr.:Yeah, bob, I'm going to end with my take on it. I use this term a lot when I'm talking and coaching HR professionals. As opposed to I'm the HR police, I'm here to be the enforcer. I'm this and that because we oftentimes find ourselves in that position, because a lot of stuff does run afoul of the law, the behaviors that we're seeing. But I take a different tact and I'd recommend this to our listening audience that of, and it's empathy-based, but it's I'm your accountability partner. I'm going to help you. I mean and we can take this back to the Matthew Perry situation where the employees like listen, matthew, we've got to do something about this. I'm here to help you. I know what you want. You know this isn't good. I know it's not good for you or me. I could go to jail, so I could happen, you could die. Looks like it happened. Jail, looks like it happened. You could die. Looks like it happened. All of this, this doesn't end in a good place, so why don't I do? I know how hard this is for you, but I'm going to be your partner in this and I'm going to help you be accountable.
Johnny C. Taylor, Jr.:I've found that in my HR practice as a Fortune 500 HR leader. Very helpful when I would run into a person as you described, the Tim character hope it's not his real name, but the Tim, your client who just is not even aware of the impact of their behavior and their countenance. And so I said let me be that person that whispers to you, not judges you, not calls your boss on you, but just kind of says, hey, we even come up with a sign, like when I see you in a meeting becoming overly aggressive. As opposed to saying stop it, tim, I give you a wink or something that lets you know I see you and I'm making you aware of what you're doing, so that you can course correct this idea of being a coach, which I know you're the expert at. But coaching people from a place of I'm trying to make you better, versus enforcing rules and disciplining people, might be the secret to solving for some of these issues.
Bob Goodwin:Yeah, so I love it and, to your point, that approach very much hinges on the confidant aspect of that and I love what you said around trust. But you know that's a step down the road on the being part of the solution. And you know, again, not just sort of standing back and judging but like I'm willing to walk into the ring with you and help you if this is the help that you would like. But what we can't do is force people to change, because that's just not how people are wired.
Announcement:They don't want to change.
Bob Goodwin:Well see, what I think. So you teased me at the beginning like I'm not sure this goes to a good place. I think it does end up in a good place. You landed the plane, my man, yay, and nobody got hurt. I need to claim my man?
Bob Goodwin:Yay and nobody got hurt, but just to leave listeners with this idea of you know, if you see something, say something and offer to be part of the solution, Then it's on the other person what they do with that. Right, but I love what you said about accountability partners. I want to just double underscore that because that's such a great, great point. But at the end of the day, you have agency. Nobody can take that away from you. You can't say that you're powerless. That's not a true statement. It can be a true statement if you give your power away. But you can reclaim your power. And so you know, I would just encourage folks because we deal with people and there's no more complicated thing on planet Earth than a human being. I have so much respect for HR people. Is is how to intercede, to have influence, to have influence that's the thing is. Hr people have so much ability to have influence in the workplace and to create the change that allows them to be the best version of themselves. But everybody else to be the best version of themselves. That's power.
Bob Goodwin:So, Johnny, I would be remiss if I also didn't say thank you to Bonnie Loh-Crayman for bringing this to our attention as a listener of this. If you hear something in the news or it's a topic that you would like to hear us unpack. This episode came directly from a recommendation from Bonnie. So, Bonnie, thank you for that, and, Johnny, anything else you want to leave us with? Or are we ready to put a bow on it? Let's put a bow on it. My you for that, and, Johnny, anything else you want to leave us with? Are we ready to put a bow on?
Johnny C. Taylor, Jr.:it. Let's put a bow on it, my friend.
Bob Goodwin:Awesome. Okay, so everyone, thank you so much for taking just a few minutes out of your day to listen. If you think a podcast like this would be helpful or instructive for a friend of yours, please feel free to share it. Ratings and reviews always help, so, but with that, I just want to say thank you for investing a few minutes and, johnny, thank you. It's a pleasure, as always, always, and see you later, there you go. Work wire.
Johnny C. Taylor, Jr.:Come on. Thanks, we'll see you all in the next episode. See you then.
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