The Work Wire
SHRM CEO Johnny C. Taylor, Jr. and Bob Goodwin, President at Career Club, host a lively conversation on how the latest news impacts all things work-related.
The Work Wire
Psychedelics - The Work Wire
Can psychedelics boost business performance? Join Johnny C. Taylor Jr., President and CEO of SHRM, and Bob Goodwin, President of Career Club, as we delve into tech executives using ketamine and psilocybin for enhanced focus, creativity, and empathy. We discuss the risks and ethical concerns of self-prescribing these drugs, the balance between short-term benefits and long-term impacts, and draw parallels to performance-enhancing drugs in sports. We also explore if historical geniuses like Leonardo da Vinci used psychedelics and reflect on modern mental health issues, stressing the need for genuine resilience and mental wellness in today's world.
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Bob Goodwin:SHRMorg. Hey everybody, this is Bob Goodwin, president of Career Club, joined by my good friend, the president and CEO of SHRM, Johnny C Taylor Jr. Johnny, how are you, sir?
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:Doing well, Bob. It's always good to see you, Dude we're going to take a trip today.
Bob Goodwin:Well done.
Bob Goodwin:I'm going to take you on a long, strange trip here for the next few minutes. We're going to be talking about something that's been in the news here recently. That is mind-blowing, if you will, and it is a trend that we're seeing with executives, particularly in the tech space, but not limited, of the use of psychedelics so ketamine, psilocybin, magic mushrooms pretty heavy duty drugs, microdosing but where there are kind of the anecdotal claims that by taking these drugs it helps them focus, it is creating greater creativity, it is allowing them to be more empathetic and open with their colleagues. I'm just reading what they say and and maybe I'm too old but I'm struggling with this in a little bit but I'm just curious when you see this kind of stuff in the news, what's your first reaction to that?
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:So my first reaction is we have a drug overuse problem, even for prescribed medications, right? You know there's all sorts of debates about what we are doing long term to our bodies with those things that are given to us by actual physicians and pursuant to regular you know, you've seen all of the studies, I'm sure, that speak to how we're changing our brains when we give our children medications to treat ADD and other types of problems. So we generally have an oversubscription problem, and so this layers onto it with. What I'm concerned about is not, we don't know enough about the long-term impacts of these psychedelic drugs on users, and many of them are sort of self-prescribing, right? Which is even scarier, they don't, you know these are people who might be brilliant coders and algorithm designers and everything, but at the end of the day, they're not physicians and don't understand how these things could impact their body long-term and their brains.
Bob Goodwin:Well, and I'll agree with you and layer on yes, there's a long-term effect, but there's a short-term effect, right, I mean, you've got people who are entrepreneurs, whether they're betting their own money, somebody else's money, like venture capitalists who might be investing in their company, their employees, where it's sort of like it's the newest fad for like a life hack of like how I go find this big unlock in my business, right, right and to your point, I'm gonna look at you make a really interesting point about just sort of generally this over reliance on drugs, right, because it feels like an easy fix or at least a bandaid on top of.
Bob Goodwin:Not really and this is what I hope we can explore a little bit in part on this episode is why are people feeling the need to take these drugs? Peter Drucker wasn't Peter Drugger, right? I mean, he figured out how to run a business better. You know, we're all excited these days about artificial intelligence. These guys are going to acid intelligence, right, and so done with my wordplay.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:So you've done a nice job with that today, Robert, you know my ad lib lines are well rehearsed.
Bob Goodwin:My ad lib lines are well rehearsed. But seriously, it's like I feel like I can be more empathetic. I feel like I can be more creative. Are you not feeling empathetic? Why do you not feel empathetic to begin with? And maybe there's a root cause to that. Or go ahead, no, or or on the creativity, or it frees my mind, kinds of things.
Bob Goodwin:I think at the risk of cutting to a chase here just a little bit is there's just, I think, some fundamental self-doubt that people are dealing with, that. These drugs, that kind of loosen your inhibitions a little bit, allow them to kind of move past some, some again what I think are self-doubt, imposter syndrome, whatever it might be, kinds of issues in the same way that, hey, let's go have a couple martinis and like I'm a lot looser than I was, you know, 45 minutes ago, that's right and forget the person that I run over in the car getting home or the wife or spouse that I go beat, or I'm advocating and this was in some of the news reports, I'm advocating, since I'm getting some benefit from this.
Bob Goodwin:You know, johnny, you should do this too and then all of a sudden, people are having literally bad trips and like it's creating trauma in their life because they're being encouraged to take drugs for some, as you said, kind of non-documented benefit well, and here's the deal.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:Even if you were to be able to document the benefits, let's's as we in the law would say, assuming, arguendo that that that it's right, let's just say we could actually demonstrate, prove out that their benefits. The same argument could be made for allowing athletes to use steroids. It makes you stronger, you. Probably that's why they got in performance enhancing drugs, but we don't allow people to do it. So the ends don't always justify the means. That's the way I think about this. You could make the case all day that certain performance enhancing drugs, ie steroids, will make an athlete faster, stronger what have you? But we don't allow it. We've actually made it illegal. So I don't really I'm not moved by data and it's weak data, by the way. Short-term data that says person A is better, they're more empathetic, they work longer, they do whatever. To your point, that's not okay. So we really have to, as a society, decide what behaviors, what methods for achieving performance, is okay. What do you say to that?
Bob Goodwin:No, I agree with that. I mean, you know, one could argue that in athletics, I mean, if I am taking steroids and it definitely has a physiological like I am bigger, stronger, faster because I'm taking this stuff, I'm not sure I am smarter, whatever, whatever, whatever on these drugs. But to your point, assuming that that's even true, I just really get back to why. Why do you feel the need to take these? Is there a deeper, more root cause thing that needs to be addressed? Because it's scary as hell to think that our company culture is. We have found that when we microdose psychedelic drugs, we all do better. So come to the, come take drugs with us.
Bob Goodwin:I've also found again I'm I'm picking on this, not because I do it, but just because it. If you said it this way, you'd be like, yeah, that's not going to happen. It's like I have two big drinks at lunch because I find that I'm much more creative after lunch. It allows me to socialize better with my colleagues and I can focus. Johnny, is it okay if I come to Sherm and I have a couple of martinis at lunch and then come back to your meetings, is that?
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:cool? No, it's not. And so this is a slippery slope and we actually have it's a really a broader conversation about big C culture and what our society, where our society is willing to go in the name of performance, be it physical performance, be it business performance, be it, you know, generally. And that's why I drew the example of and tried to make the analogy I should call it analog to sports enhancing drugs. If it's all about winning, if it's all about the ends justifying the means, we can justify anything. You actually could justify a ton of things that go beyond just psychedelics. But get into real. What we all, I think 100% agree are bad drugs, right, but in the name of performance. So there's a conversation. If winning by any means is a good thing for society, I would submit to you that it's not, for a couple of reasons. One, there's real.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:If we talk about merit, as we talk a lot and you know then merit suggests that everyone's sort of playing by the same, you know, same playing on the same level, and level playing field is the phrase I'm not as good today as you are, but it does and so if some people have access to it and others don't, then is that a a fair. Is that truly a meritocracy at work? That's one. Number two is different people handle these things differently. If your body can't metabolize it, so my boss does it and performs really well, so I now model that behavior. What if I don't respond well to that? And now you've got real consequences, downstream consequences, to your employee population. So I just I think again we don't know enough about it, and you made a really good point. Not only do we not know a lot about it long term, we're not been sure we know a lot about it short term, johnny you've been on some public boards, right?
Bob Goodwin:So let's just pretend that one of the companies that you're on the board in, the CEO, comes in and says to a board meeting oh my gosh, I took some ketamine over the weekend and I have this blinding insight on our business. Yes, and I really think that we've got it wrong and I think the right thing that we should do is basically blow up the strategy and go do this, let's dial into the lawyer in you for a minute. Like the, the, the public reputation. So now, now, the CEO's quoted in the Wall Street Journal, right, ketamine, it like, oh my gosh, just like opened up my mind and that's why we're going to just completely throw the rudder over the other way the, the shareholder risk. They're like wait a minute, this person's on drugs, making these kinds of decisions and the board's cool with this. And this is what we're doing. Like. Would there be legal ramifications if a public company ceo went on record saying I'm dropping acid, making business decisions and shepherding the business in light of that?
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:So one. I don't know the actual legal answer to it, but what I can say to you is maybe, maybe not, but, more importantly, even if there weren't which is what you and I are actually trying to get to would that be OK? Because actually, what prompted this discussion is an article in the Wall Street Journal where a lot of companies are aware that their CEOs sadly, in my opinion, and I think, yours there are CEOs who are now openly acknowledging that they are doing that and the boards know it, that they are doing that and the boards know it. Now I think those boards obviously have some risk If said CEO, if I say that I'm doing this, I leave a board meeting and therefore get in a car accident or do something to hurt someone, I go sexually harass an employee because my inhibitions have now been like I can see again, I'm not playing lawyer, I only do that on TV, but I do. I can see there being a very good case for it, not unlike if you had an if here's. I'm a board member and I know that my CEO drinks to the point of intoxication and does so in his office, and we are all aware of it, but the results are great, so we allow him or her to do it and then on their lunch break, driving back from a lunch where they've had two or three drinks, they run over someone. Yes, we would have liability. Not only will he or she the CEO have liability, but I can only imagine any good lawyer is going to try to drag the company into it because you knew and you benefited from it. If your argument goes, when he or she was drunk they did well or their moods were altered, so I could see a very interesting legal argument.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:Now again, I'm not here to tender legal advice or offer. What I can tell you is I see it, but I want to go bigger than that. Is this the kind of society? Is this the kind of culture we want people to work in? Because I worry that if that's okay, then what's next? It's that slippery slope argument and I don't see how this ends up in a good place, particularly for things that are moving, changing people's who they are, you know, in terms of how they show up to work. You acknowledge I'm a more empathetic person when I do this and it just doesn't feel right. Here's something else that I think we need to focus on, for and we've seen. I'm still shocked at how we where we've ended up with marijuana in our society.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:I was going to go there if you did and we're not even old people, so I'm not a fuddy-duddy but how we've sort of loosened it. So I'm riding in the car the other day and I ride up, a car drives up next to me and my daughter were in the car and our windows are open because it's a beautiful spring day and just you could just smell it, I mean, from the car next door, and I looked at my daughter and I said that's horrible. And she said it is legal now, dad, and I said well, sweetheart, the law says you can use it, the law. There's also another law that says you can't drive while under the influence of anything. A physician prescribed medication, illicit drugs you can't. There's nothing that allows you to drive a car and put other people at risk in the name of it's now legal.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:But that whole conversation made me realize that we have moved the goalposts such that first it was marijuana, at first it was no, you don't do it. Then it was for medicinal purposes, then everything became medicinal and we are just moving to the point where it seems to be okay to do whatever you want to do, as long as the result is you feel good and your point which you raised at the outset. The result is you feel good and your point which you raised at the outset is, I think, a really interesting one, and that is there's some really significant underlying sort of personal, mental and emotional issues that need to be addressed, and just covering them up with drugs doesn't solve for the issue at the core of this.
Bob Goodwin:Yeah, and so so, just just building on your point about, you know, this normalization of drug use, right, and again, not trying to be a fuddy duddy and people knew my history, you'd be stunned but, but, but, and yet you, you mentioned one thing too, like it started off medicinal, and I wanted to touch on that for a second, because somebody's going to be listening to this and go, yeah, but there are some people who are prescribed these things and are, you know, for psychological issues, right, and it is being administered in a medicinal capacity, okay, but that's pretty much not what we're talking about. Yeah, right, this is the. I just feel better and I want to do it. It's very off label, if you will. You know, utilization of these kinds of drugs and let's call them those drugs, and so, yeah, I completely agree with you that it's just.
Bob Goodwin:If you just keep lowering the bar, then anything's OK, and but not even making a value judgment on that, and I do agree with you with culture with a big C, and I'm not trying to ignore that get, though, fundamentally, as a business person, as an executive, as a leader at your company, what's going on that you feel the need? I think I wrote some notes as I was thinking about. This call is did Leonardo da Vinci drop acid before he? Did Thomas Edison need acid to be able to have however many inventions and patents and discoveries that he did?
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:But let's say he did Bob for just a second Play that out. Suppose he did, what would you say? Would that change anything? Because I worry that we don't know. You know, we didn't have the Internet, we don't have proof of it. We do know some real. There are at least historical historians who say certain of our musical geniuses used drugs. And what were what would have been the psychedelics of the day? Mushrooms, marijuana, help, pcp. We've heard it all, but I want to.
Bob Goodwin:I think I'm sorry to pause here, but would it matter if they did Well, maybe, and I'm not going to dodge the question, but what I am going to say is that's a hypothetical dealing with what we do know to be true. That's not the case, right, and so I don't want to get actually sucked into a hypothetical dealing with what we do know to be true. That's not the case, right, right. And so I don't want to get actually sucked into a hypothetical vortex when you know the reality is to the best of our knowledge. You know all these great minds didn't need that. They were able to do their genius. And you're right, you know, with, like, the psychedelic era. And then we also sort of see the carnage of Janis Joplin and Jimi Hendrix and Jim Morrison and you know that's a long list or an Eric Clapton who's like, like I almost destroyed my life doing this. I'm not sure there's a lot of people who, at the end of that all of that, go, yay, that was awesome, really glad I did that. They're like, I'm glad I didn't die doing that. And so you're right.
Bob Goodwin:I mean, when is, like you know, shooting heroin going to be the next thing that you know somebody feels like they really need to cope and they really need to be at their competitive best or creative best or empathetic best. It's very, very scary to think that companies are being run by people who feel the need to be on very strong drugs to be at their best. And you talked about unfair competitive advantages and meritocracy and stuff. And what I thought about while you were saying that was well, yeah, but you went to Miami, I went to Tennessee, she went to Wharton, he went to Harvard Business School. That's an unfair advantage, right. What one could argue is a superior education, maybe, or maybe not, but this whole thing with drugs I just, I just got to keep coming back to why are you doing this? Fundamentally, why do you feel inadequate in a sober state to perform at your best what you're getting at.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:I'm glad we circled back to that because and it's why I posed the question Does it matter? Fundamentally, we know that we have um a serious mental health problem in our country and if our response to it, as we know in every, is simply to medicate it, then we're not getting to the underlying.
Bob Goodwin:Amen, exactly.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:I mean right now we talk about all of the GLP-1 or whatever, those that class of drugs, the obesity drugs are. One thing that we know for sure is, if you simply want to give people the medication and not change their lifestyle, you're not solving for anything. You've got to figure out what is going on here emotionally, physically, et cetera and then help solve for that. So ultimately, the goal is to wean you off of the drugs, not to keep you for chronic conditions. To your point when the doctor prescribes these psychedelics or other drugs to solve for a serious problem that you're having a physical or mental health crisis, god, there are people who are mentally ill to the point that they need drugs prescribed by a physician. But even those things over time, have consequences. They ruin their kidneys, they're. You know, I was just talking to someone the other day who said their mother I guess a mother who had used and I can't remember the name of the drug, but some sort of mood altering drug, because this person was bipolar Got it. But now, you know, fast forward, 55 years old, the person's kidney is gone. So you know, we now imagine if we could now, maybe you needed to, maybe the doctor was right. If we're going to get through this. This person needs to take this medication, and the downside is they will have a kidney at 55 and will either replace it or they'll die.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:I got it, but you don't need to do that in the name of winning the race in tech. I mean shame on you if that's so. We need to as an HR profession, I think. And going back to my big C is we've got to figure out do our people have the resources they do to become your word, and I'd love you to talk about this resilience? Yes, that's what this is about. If your response is, I'm going to introduce this artificial agent, this drug thing, to help me get back in the game and be my best self, that's problematic. That's a resiliency problem and many will debate. I think it's right. In our country, we have a resiliency problem, and it's not just the alpha generation or Generation Z across the board. No-transcript.
Bob Goodwin:Johnny, because this is on the fly, so I really do appreciate you doing that Is. The core thing in resilience is change is going to happen, and I think what we see in society and in business is the pace and magnitude of change is only increasing. The way I like to say is today is the slowest day for the rest of your life. It's just going to get faster and faster and faster, and so it's the ability. It really really comes down to your self-identity and intrinsic values. Who am I as a human being? I can face challenges. I've got courage. I've got empathy, like I know who I am and I draw on that. I know who's in my community to support me and how to draw on them for different and I've got a tribe and different people serve different functions.
Bob Goodwin:In that, when I see unwanted change, how do I go find the purpose in it? I may not have liked this change that's happening, but how can I go benefit, find in the midst of that right and then become creative and innovative to work around through, capitalize even on this, this change that's happened. We see this all the time at career club, where someone's been laid off and, like I, somebody pressed the pause button on my career. I didn't choose that, but you know what? That's allowed me to go spend more time with my aging parents. That's allowed me to rethink. What do I really want to do? I was just sort of in the rat race of life and somebody took me off of it for a while and they make a life change.
Bob Goodwin:But the thing and why I'm so big on resilience is it's not just a business strategy, it is a life skill that is going to prevent higher levels of burnout Right, that is going to prevent higher levels of burnout, disengagement, attrition and just basically, as people, we see this all the time. As they develop resilience, it actually injects joy back into their life. And you know at the risk of getting philosophical for just a second joy is irrespective of circumstances. Happiness is circumstance. I just won the circumstances, happiness is circumstances. I just won the lottery.
Bob Goodwin:I'm happy. Joy is something. Not great has happened, but I've got an optimistic, a sense of agency right and I think that's a big piece of what people lose when they're taking drugs like this is their sense of agency. They're actually handing the control over to a drug because I can't do this myself, I'm going to take a mood altering. So I don't. I'm not actually dealing with the feeling. I'm just kind of numbing the feeling out for a little bit or somehow morphing it chemically in my brain, instead of actually having a strategy for how to not just survive but thrive through challenging circumstances.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:So, bob, you said something that struck me. All of us are in some ways in pursuit of joy and I love the distinction that you made between joy and happiness. Right, I did this when you said it. Joy is just it's in you, like happiness is fleeting. And to your point, I'm happy today may not be happy tomorrow, hell. Joy is just it's in you, like that's a happiness is fleeting. And to your point, I'm happy today. It may not be happy tomorrow, hell may not be happy.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:Five minutes intervening cause gets in, but joy, peace, all of that Got it. What if I said to you and I'm being devil's advocate here I am in pursuit of that joy, I am in pursuit of that joy, I'm the CEO and I'm in pursuit of it. And I get it from these psychedelics, like I'm actually generally happy, life's good, I've made a lot of money, I'm a tech CEO, I've made money, I have influence. I've been unable to get it because I have all the trappings, the money, the title, the life or partner, what I got it all, I'm still not filled with joy.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:So I'm actually this is my 20 minutes a day where I actually am joy filled. How do you react? It's called an addiction. Oh, don't hold back on the judgment, bob, but I'm serious.
Bob Goodwin:Dude, I'm being clinical. That's called an addiction. Again, that isn't an extrinsic actor in your life and what I'm talking about is intrinsic. It's irrespective of what's going on around you or, in this case, in you and the ability to have, as you say, joy, peace, fulfillment. That's not created for you because of a drug.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:It's generated out of you, based on, again, a very healthy self identity no, I think that's right, and so as we get into this, I think the real, the biggest takeaway for me, as I step all the way back, is I think this is more of an indictment or indication of the where we are from a mental wellness and mental health standpoint in our country. That's what this is and, yes, resiliency is a part of it, and it's a big part of it, because we can help people. Life has good days and bad days, like you have to be able to bounce back from them, and ideally without the help of a psychedelic. But I do think that what I'm excited about is we are finally having these conversations. So when I read the Wall Street Journal articles and other articles extolling the virtues of this, I said there's a message in there that we've got to help people manage their mental wellness much better. So we have the answer. I don't know if we have the answers, but we are much better at managing physical problems.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:The way that we've now addressed this is on and we're starting to have the conversations in the workplace is around the importance of mental well-being. So that to me I'm an optim, an optimist, right, and so part of me says the fact that these CEOs are openly talking about this. Sure they may say they're getting better results, but even the fact that a CEO says this makes me more empathetic speaks volumes, because how many in the past CEOs they scoffed at the term empathy and sympathy, or serpy HR terms. At least they're understanding that this state, the end state of being a better manager and a better leader, is something I think is important. There's value.
Bob Goodwin:That's an aspirational quality Right important.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:There's value. That's an aspirational quality, right, and the fact that I don't I'm getting there the wrong way is is a whole different conversation. But I actually saw in that, wow, at least they know I am not a great manager, I want to be the way that I'm going to get there is this thing, but at least I'm aware of how I can be a better leader yeah, and that's I mean that that's pretty hardcore optimist.
Bob Goodwin:So I applaud you. I applaud you for that. But, um, the backup, just on mental wellness, because that's a topic that you know are highly, highly aligned on, you know, it's human resources, these are real people, these aren't cells on a spreadsheet, right. And so when we can start to help people uncover within themselves how to find fulfillment, purpose, satisfaction in their work and more broadly in their life, then that is back to your culture with a giant C. That is a huge good that we're doing for culture at large, and so you know being part of that. Again, I think this is just symptomatic of broader issues, but I do you know, like your insight, that the fact that that's even an aspirational goal and just understanding, awareness of, like I should probably be more empathetic, is a good thing. But if drugs are the way to get there, I'm not 100% convinced on that one just yet.
Bob Goodwin:Anything else to add, Johnny, before we wrap this one up.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:I thought you brought up. This is an odd topic when you, you know we both kind of collaborate on what we're going to talk about. And you said an odd topic when you, you know we both kind of collaborate on what we're going to talk about and you sent us a where are we going to go with this Cause? But the fact that a serious, arguably one of the most serious business journals in the world, the wall street journal, is talking about this means this is not just Johnny and Bob have run out of content, right. This is a real conversation and I hope those who are listening understand why we're talking about it.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:At the end of the day, whether you agree or disagree, because the temptation is, people will be sitting in their worlds right now listening to this and debating whether it's really not about that. I think you hit the real issue. We've got to get to a point where people can find joy and hopefully do so without these sorts of artificial agents, because we don't know the long term consequences of it. I say and it's also a bigger statement about our culture, so I live on culture. You're saying, guys, we, we got, we got some other problems here. People's mental well-being is that issue, both of us land at the right place. I think for that reason that's the hope. So no one out here should they debate with us about whether because if you want to use psychedelic it's not. Neither of us can control that, but I do think it's a fair conversation that HR practitioners need to take up.
Bob Goodwin:Awesome, cool. But Johnny, again, again, you know we kind of go where people tend to not go. Thank you, wall Street Journal, for helping us see. You know, kind of this is a broader issue than maybe people might think and you know for our listeners and viewers. Thank you very much. We really value and honor the time that you invest with us every week here on the Work Wire and Johnny C Taylor Jr. I just get joy out of being in your presence.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:So thank you, and I'm very fulfilled by our time together. Amen, awesome.
Bob Goodwin:Well, thank you very much. Enjoy the rest of your week. Listeners, viewers, enjoy the rest of your day and thank you again and we look forward to seeing you in the next episode of the work wire.
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