The Work Wire
SHRM CEO Johnny C. Taylor, Jr. and Bob Goodwin, President at Career Club, host a lively conversation on how the latest news impacts all things work-related.
The Work Wire
End of Resumes - The Work Wire
Are traditional resumes becoming relics of the past? Tune in as I, Bob Goodwin, alongside the insightful Johnny C. Taylor Jr., President and CEO of SHRM, unravel the complex tapestry of talent acquisition. We dive into the debate over whether industry experience and academic pedigree should remain the linchpins of the hiring process, potentially sidelining untapped talent. Together, we navigate the promises and pitfalls of skills-based hiring, dissecting how AI is revolutionizing the way HR navigates the sea of candidates while maintaining a steadfast grip on risk management.
As a former labor and employment lawyer, I bring a nuanced lens to the legal tightrope of modern hiring practices, as Johnny and I dissect the equity at stake when rewriting the rules of recruitment. We share a vision of a workplace where a candidate's unique journey can be the key to fresh industry perspectives, advocating for a hiring culture that prizes learning agility and emotional intelligence over traditional checkboxes. This episode is a clarion call for a seismic shift in how we define qualifications, urging an inclusive approach to talent evaluation that doesn't compromise excellence. Join us as we champion the transformative potential of inclusive hiring and the power it holds to reshape industries.
You're listening to WorkWire, sponsored by CareerClub and SHRM. Careerclub has a range of services aimed at job seekers with an empathetic approach. Whether you are a job seeker yourself, know someone who is in job search or an HR professional looking to bring a more empathetic approach to transitioning employees, check out Career Club. If you are an HR professional seeking to enhance your skills, subscribe to SHRM and explore their extensive resources, Visit SHRMorg. That's SHRMorg.
Bob Goodwin:Hello everybody, this is Bob Goodwin. Welcome to another episode of the Work Wire, where I'm joined by my co-host, the inimitable president and CEO of SHRM, johnny C Taylor Jr, johnny, great to see you.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:Great to see you. I love that word. I don't know how to spell it, I'm not even sure. I barely got it. I don't even know what it means, but thank you because I'm assuming good intent.
Bob Goodwin:Always good intent, always good intent. So I'm excited about today's topic. Johnny, it's a little, you know, trying to be push the envelope here a little bit, but we're going to talk about the end of resumes. Oh okay, how can I get right? How can you do the end of a resume? But, as you know, at career club we work a lot with either people that have been displaced in their role. We also work with candidates who won't be moving forward in a talent acquisition process, but so they are active job seekers and they're seeing these roles they think they're super qualified for and they're not pretty far down the line.
Bob Goodwin:Interviewing with someone and be the number two candidate, the silver medalist, if you will, and you know, ask for a little bit of feedback, you know, was there anything that you know you would have liked to seen that would have made me the preferred candidate? And so often it comes down to well, the person that we went with just had a little bit more industry experience, and that just like sends me through the roof, like, really, now I mean to me just to kind of set this up a little bit. More is kind of, in broad strokes, it's education. Yes, hey, what is your? Do you have a college degree? Typically, is your degree relevant to the functional area or the role that we're hiring for, and where did you go to school? Because wherever you went to school matters in theory.
Bob Goodwin:And then experience and again I'm not trying to diminish you. Do you have the proficiency to do the work that is required in a given role? But at the same time, there's this really strong bias. In fact, generally, it's the first filter of do you have industry experience? And that definition of industry can be incredibly narrow. Yes, so I believe that there is kind of this forced constraint in talent acquisition, but also on the side of the candidates that we work with, that there's so many opportunities that they would be qualified for if how we were defining qualified was broader. And so I think the way that the industry would talk about that is skills-based hiring. Yes, yeah, and yet there's not a lot of uniformity on exactly what that means. So, from your side, johnny, as you're working with HR professionals and we know that there's always this air quote war for talent, and yet what we're defining as talent, I think, is a little flawed. Based on your degree and your work experience, how do you just sort of generally see the issue?
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:Man. This is the issue that has proved quite vexing for HR professionals and, frankly, line managers. All of us and I start with very briefly we know it's suboptimal the way that we do it now. We know that we're missing incredibly talented people, but here are three reasons why Hear me right, I'm not arguing it For those who are out there listening said okay, here he goes. It's one.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:Some of it is purely efficiency. If you post a job and you get a thousand applicants, okay, having to go through all 1,000 of those resumes is time consuming, it's not particularly efficient and it's exhausting. I mean, let's just admit it, if you've ever been in that position, you got all these resumes. So you immediately look for things that will help take the thousand down to a hundred or 50 or 20. And that means you rule out the people without a degree. You rule out the people who don't have X number of years of experiences in the industry or doing the job, even if in a different industry, like you are what you're doing.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:And again, this, please don't hear me, this is not in defense of TA, talent acquisition professionals, but it's just practically speaking, which my response to that is thank God for AI and other technologies now because they can actually help us solve for some of that Human beings. If you have 20 open positions and you've got a thousand resumes and applicants every morning, you know applying for those jobs it's tough. So that's one. This, so that's really why we've done it, is to help make this the unmanageable manageable.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:Secondly, from a risk profile no one ever ever gets fired for hiring the guy with a harvard degree and 20 years years in industry experience who doesn't work out. But if you, as an acquisition person, put your neck on the line and you've got to make the case to the hiring manager that this is a strong candidate based upon his or her skills, although the profile doesn't read as nicely as the other one, you're taking a risk. We are judged as human resources professionals oftentimes not only in how quickly you fill the job but how successful the candidate is in the job. There is a part of it which says I don't want my numbers to reflect that if I were in baseball I took a swing at some bad. What do you call those?
Speaker 1:You can tell I'm not an athlete, right.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:But right, I mean, that's just the fact of the matter. And then, thirdly, which is sort of related to all of it, is ultimately human resources professionals. Our number one challenge is to get the best talent, however so defined, into our organization. And you do increase the odds of having the best talent if that talent has been tried. What's that old saying Past performance is the best indicator of future performance. Well, if I'm in a tech job, if I'm at a tech company and I'm looking for someone to be a programmer, that person came from Google, apple, microsoft. There's just a better chance that they're going to be successful, putting aside the cultural differences between a Google and a SHRM. But the fact of the matter is when the resume says, I just you got the top developer from Apple. It happens to be that he went to Stanford. Check Happens to be that he's in the right major tech, like I got it. So all of the three I want to set up, that's the reality of what the talent acquisition and HR professional faces.
Bob Goodwin:Yeah, so so, and thank you for framing that out, and this is, as you say, not, you know, an attack on talent acquisition, nor is it a defense of talent acquisition. Where I'm trying to move to is that the workforce is changing rapidly. Work is changing rapidly and I saw the testimony that you gave to the Armed Services Committee and you're helping them understand how we got here and where we're going. May not be the same thing, right, and so you know, kind of to your point on the efficiency and the risk management, and just you know what's the best predictor that we know of, of you know, performance. So I'm tracking with you on all those things. I'm tracking with you on all those things I think that you know. On the risk thing, I wanna talk about that for a second. So we both know Joe Fuller from Harvard Business School right, yes, yes.
Bob Goodwin:And he leads the Future of Work project at Harvard and I was speaking with him and we were talking about, as appropriate in the roles that actually don't require a four-year college degree, that companies have implemented a policy and I always pick on this one because it's just top of mind for me but cybersecurity Do I need to know the Canterbury Tales to be able to be a really good entry-level cybersecurity analyst?
Bob Goodwin:Probably not. And then companies will say hey, so for roles like that we have dropped the college degree requirement, but what he sees in their data is that they still keep hiring only people with a college degree, joe, why is that? Because, back to what you said, it's risk they perceive, personal risk of why did you hire Bob when you could have had Johnny? Johnny's got the four year degree, bob doesn't, and so it's on you that you took a risk, even though I know what the policy says. But I also know reality, and so there's definitely that perception that we can even change the policy and still not move in that direction well, and let me, let me double click on that.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:As you know, as a former labor and employment lawyer, I can tell you it's not just perception. Frankly, the laws make us look at it that way Because if you make the decision and I'm going to use you've got a guy who applies for a job, phenomenal experience and can do this job. He was great at coding and has done it since he was 12. You have a woman apply for that same job and she has a degree from Stanford and a master's in MIT. If you give that job to that man, you are subjecting your company to EEOC claims and potentially litigation.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:So it's not, it's more than just and I have to say I've seen this over and over again. It's not an explanation. I'm not justifying or rationalizing anything, folks. I'm trying to let you know that as a labor and employment lawyer and God forbid, our plaintiff's lawyer I take that case up every day that you hired the guy without the college degree over the woman whose credentials clearly made her better qualified. So we have to also understand that as HR professionals, we are one of the most regulated unregulated professions on the planet because we're subject to litigation and employment Litigation is big, it's expensive, tarnishes the company's reputation, even if you win.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:Again, no excuse, but you got to understand the context in which we work. No judge is going to just give you a pass because you say, yeah, but he was you know building, you know code and writing code since he was 10. But look at her background. That could be race, it could be any. I mean on any basis. We are also living in an environment where we have to be really careful because someone is second guessing your decision to not pursue, not offer her a job, but to offer it to this guy based purely on skills. Ok, fair point. So I don't know if I like that fair point and sometimes I know because, because what I?
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:noted to me and sometimes I'm like I mean she didn't she. If I like that fair point, no, no, no, because what I noted to me and sometimes I'm like I mean she didn't like that.
Bob Goodwin:What I'm saying is that I'm trying to address that there is a very broad pool of talent who is being excluded from roles that they could be successful in due to legacy requirements and laws and laws, yes, so as we think about, so if the kind of the legacy equation is education plus experience equals qualified.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:Bad, bad math.
Bob Goodwin:I want to explore something with you, Johnny, that kind of says no, wait a minute. First of all, while your experience is good, there's actually a couple of maybe things you haven't thought about. One is the lack of diversity of thought. So if all we have is people who've worked in the auto industry, working in our auto company, versus bringing in somebody who worked at Amazon or Microsoft or just Apple, like just same tech companies for some reason, but somebody that brings like this completely different, fresh viewpoint into the company instead of but we've always hired people who have come from the auto industry, Well, I want to question that On that level alone. That just bringing the diversity of experience, the diversity of thought, somebody that can say we've had analogous issues at Amazon, that you guys are facing at Ford, here's a different way of potentially thinking about the problem and how to solve it. That benefits the company tremendously.
Bob Goodwin:And yet I see every day that the number one criteria that employers are looking at is do you have relevant industry experience? And part of it's very understandable, because, back to your second point on risk, it's like well, but if I got to teach you the auto industry, that equals time. And now that kind of branches off into two risk factors of are you ever going to get it and, if you do, how long is it going to take you to get it? And then that means I'm paying you and not getting an ROI potentially on my higher review. So it's not illogical that people are looking at industry. I'm just suggesting that there's this overemphasis on industry to the exclusion of considering people who don't come from the industry considering people who don't come from the industry.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:So we are violently agreeing no surprise, bob, I I don't. So I was. I was identifying the other argument, and that's what I found sometimes to to really address an issue. I've got to understand what the other side of the argument is. I, though, agree with you. In an environment right now in the US, we have 8.8, almost 8.9 million open jobs. Frankly, we don't have the luxury of saying some people, just because you don't fit this perfect idea of the candidates, you come from our industry, with this number of years experience at this school, with this GPA and this major like we just don't have it. That's why there's people looking for jobs, but employers looking for jobs to be filled and none of the. It's like that's insane. So I I literally agree with everything that you're saying, and so let's get to solutions. So got it.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:There is actually a way to get around, and I don't mean in a negative way, but to resolve to solve for the legal issue. If the company says from the top down, chro down, we're going to be an organization that a doesn't require the degree, doesn't rule people out because they have criminal background or credit problems, doesn't require industry experience. That's a start because it establishes the tone and gives a framework where, if you go to the EEOC later, I was just with the former vice chair of the EEOC yesterday, keith Sunderland, who's still on. He's a commissioner and I would say he's like listen, our issue is we don't want to tell you what the rules should be at your company, but we're saying that if they're your rules, you got to follow them. So maybe we redefine and you can do this, friends redefine what is qualified. Qualified doesn't have to be experience in the auto industry. You can just say experience marketing, yes, anything right, we can do that. Where we have boxed ourselves in is by requiring this much experience in the industry for every candidate until we actually want the candidate or because it's a friend of a friend.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:Then the E, eeoc and others come in and say that doesn't work. So start with reframing, saying we want to be a skills based employer. We're going to make our hiring decisions, our promotion decisions, our pay decisions, based upon skills and performance. That alone will will, while not eliminate it, will significantly mitigate any risk and profile, and it also internally. Then, when you are hiring managers, start seeing oh, johnny over in finance just hired someone who doesn't have a finance degree in accounting. That person's amazing. Maybe the organization actually believes us now. Or Johnny's in a retailer and he just hired someone from manufacturing.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:But people have to see it, bob. It's not enough for me and you and the CHRO and others to pontificate about it. We've got to start saying this is a skills-based show me what you know. Even in the phrase, I heard people say education plus experience, what you know. Even in the phrase, I heard people say education plus experience. Well, experience is education. I mean right, you can learn the job or you can go off to some four year, seven year, whatever school.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:There are ways to just language how we talk about it. We want the person who can do the job, not who who sends signals of I went to the right schools or what. I've worked in the right industries. And I think we're getting there. As frustrating as it may sound and I'm sure you see people on the other side of it it is changing the mood. I'm seeing people now, ceos of industries where, like where'd that person come from? How did they get this job? Because that's not the way we used to select CEOs. If you're going to be in an automotive, you had to show yourself to be a former automotive industry CEO, so it didn't work out. By the way, as you know, middle management is plagued by this and senior executive selection also.
Bob Goodwin:So that's very interesting. So if I'm hearing you right with the EEOC thing is that we can reframe our risk profile.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:That's right. Well said, perfectly said.
Bob Goodwin:That's right. That's right. So I want to pick up on kind of if I'm sort of downplaying the legacy formula and I appreciate what you're saying that experiences, education, although I think that that gets saying that experience is education, although I think that that gets underappreciated sometimes, and so I appreciate things like opportunities at work and other people that are like that is education. They've been doing this for 10 years without a piece of paper on their wall. That's right. I agree with that.
Bob Goodwin:What I wanna suggest, and at least kind of talk out with you for a minute, is a different formula that I think is more reflective of the workplace going forward, which is around learning agility. Experience will be less important is industries are being redefined very quickly because of technology right, and business models are changing. So that's great that you knew that version of tech, like you worked at AOL, but guess what that's like? It's changed. Like we're not in a prodigy and AOL world anymore, or Blackberries, or like pick anything right. So learning agility, because the pace of change I like to say this to people is that today is the slowest day for the rest of your life. I like to say that.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:It's so true too.
Bob Goodwin:And it's true. I mean just everything is changing so quickly that the shelf life of a given skill or a given experience set is actually shrinking, and so we need to continually be learning. So I need to, from a skills-based perspective, to be able to hire agile learners. That is a huge superpower moving forward. The second one would be around contribution, motivation, people that want to make a difference. My ability to see that I'm having an impact is important to me, right?
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:So I could have a great degree.
Bob Goodwin:I could have, you know, kind of done ridden the bench for 10 years at some company, but you know, I'm just sort of getting along and I'm just sort of living in the middle and nobody's found me out yet. But my desire, my motivation to contribute, you know, might be, you know, somewhat muted versus somebody that's like I am so behind the mission of the organization, I'm so behind the needs of the people that we serve, I'm so behind the solutions that we're developing and bringing to the market, like I am passionate about contributing because I believe in our leadership. Whatever it is that you can hang your hat on. Contribution motivation is huge.
Bob Goodwin:And the third one and I saved this for the last because I think it's misunderstood is emotional intelligence. I'm going to borrow a line from one of my favorite people, the CEO of SHRM, who says that these are not soft skills, these are power skills. That's right, right. And we talk about empathy and humility We've talked in a previous episode around civil conversations, previous episode around civil conversations but this, the emotional intelligence being a high quality team member, somebody that makes the team stronger, who can foster healthy relationships, is not to be underestimated. So, learning agility plus contribution motivation plus emotional intelligence. Those would be at least three of the skill buckets that I would hope that we could start to identify better and rank candidates against.
Speaker 1:No, I think that's right.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:And yeah, I mean, we're in the middle of a really interesting transformation in the workplace and it all started, frankly, thanks to COVID. I say oftentimes, covid wasn't all bad. Many ways it forced us to rethink the entire way that we work, our relationship with work, et cetera. You know that, right, the idea that 20% of the workforce would work remotely would have never occurred. We were in single digit numbers pre-pandemic, and now it's swung back to some combination of hybrid and it's real right. What I would say is what you are talking about is you're a frontiersman. This is where the world is going.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:I know it's frustrating for people like you and professionals who work in this space every day and you see really talented people being overlooked and you're like what gives? You're saying you need talent, I've got the talent who can do this job in spades, but you're not hiring. I see the frustration. Let me give you some confidence. These conversations are happening everywhere. Skills-based is not just a feel-good term, but in practice, they don't hire them at the rates that they say they would hire College degree or not, same thing, absolutely. And you talked about Fuller's work and others. So this is, this is a part of the sea shift that we are seeing right now in the workplace, but progress is being made. What you're talking about and I'm so glad we're talking about the end of resumes in the traditional sense is you're you're tapping into exactly where the industry is going, where the HR profession is going. Let me leave you with this, which is fascinating this will. You can't just preach to the HR people, because if I'm a talent acquisition person and I see a really talented person that I want to put before one of our hiring managers, but that hiring manager has a bias that sometimes is your biggest. That's the wall, right? You know, hr people say sure, I'll hire you without a degree. Sure, I'll hire you if you're formerly incarcerated. I put you into the process, get you to the hiring manager and the hiring manager's like eh, eh, that's who's making that call.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:So one of the things that I'm advocating for is that we have a broader conversation in our culture like that says you don't have to have the perfect background from the perfect schools, from the perfect companies like we. We have to relax those standards. And relaxing doesn't mean, uh, not having right does not mean lowering. Relaxing doesn't mean lowering, but it's saying it didn't matter anyway.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:I I often tell when I was in the legal profession, we would have a requirement that you know you had to graduate top 10% of your class to come to the law firms that I worked at. I worked two big law firms and you'd be in the top 10% of your class and I said, very little of our work requires someone to have been in the top 10% of their class. We should be honest, right. What we're doing is adding to the prestige by saying we're excluding people and that's how we are building our prestige. But the fact of the matter is 90% of this could be done by any reasonably good lawyer. So, say, top third of your class could do this work just fine. But we did it intentionally and hopefully these walls are coming down. We are relaxing the standards while not sacrificing quality. That's the pitch that we've got to make writ large to employers, and employers mean hiring managers.
Bob Goodwin:Yes, no. So I want to pick up and it's a fair point because you're right Talent acquisitions job isn't to hire the person. Hiring manager's job is to hire the person. I think the whole issue I'm going to speak probably too broadly, I think so much of this lands on your second point at the beginning of this, which is around risk. We are wired to minimize downside risk Absolutely Right. And so you're right, I am a frontiersman and I seek to do things aspirationally because that's the way that I'm wired. But as human beings, we are wired to protect ourselves Absolutely Right, and so we use these proxies for risk management to help us, you know, be safe. Basically, I don't want to get fired for having done something right and so, um, yet what I love about what you guys do.
Bob Goodwin:What you do specifically, johnny, is you're trying to change the conversation, yes, and we're trying to open up people's minds to a new world in a new way of doing things that you know may feel risky and there will be mistakes. Of course there will be mistakes, but managing to the lowest common denominator is just putting a bit in the mouth of the horse. Keeping progress and I mean more social progress, job satisfaction kinds of things know is ultimately not serving people, but but as we can continue to just open up the dialogue but also give you know. I appreciate what you said. Like I know this isn't a new topic, but it's. How do we continue to advance it and help? You know, as you say, both the talent people and the hiring managers actually execute against these things in their companies. Everybody wins.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:And I got another thing that I'd like to add, and I'm surprised you talk about this a lot, but collect the data. It is amazing how compelling the data is. So we are right now doing that in my current role at Sherm as an employer is, when we hire the non-traditional out of sector so they're not from HR, they're not from the nonprofit when we hire those, let's measure how they do. You'd be surprised. The data will increasingly tell you that the formerly incarcerated retain longer and perform just as well. We know that people outside of our traditional nonprofit HR space perform better in our environment. So I think one of the things as HR professionals we and anyone listening if you're a hiring manager is collect the data. The data will tell the story better than Bob or Johnny ever could.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:These are the people who came from outside and didn't have the traditional, you know, check the box didn't meet those criteria. But look how they're performing. And now look at the folks who did and it's not to knock, you know, the folks who came from the space, whatever automotive, industry, manufacturing, whatever but I think you're going to see that they don't perform any worse than any other group, which means the new framework is based in data like it's data, then you de-risk it even more for the human brain. The human says you know. Human beings say the data says this is not so risky. Right, right, so that.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:And then you sell it into senior management as they come up their cultural framework to say, yeah, yeah, they're going to be failures. But guess what? We, when we hire people from the industry, they fail. I, I'm in another role right now. I don't want to call a company out, but we hired someone who had the perfect background, from the perfect industry I mean industry, everything and six months later it didn't work out the person. We replaced that individual with notice, I'm very careful not to gender anything because I don't want to disclose anything but the replacement person didn't come from the industry and proved to be a freaking superstar. So when you can point to those examples, you then help with the narrative shift.
Bob Goodwin:Yeah. So again, I just would really want to encourage anybody who's listening and again, thank you, johnny, for the point around hiring managers in particular. Let's think about you know, how can people demonstrate learning agility? Tell me about a time. What's the most recent thing that you've learned? What are you? What's the most recent certification that you've gotten? You know? Tell me, don't just say you're naturally curious. Show me you know, how you continue to learn, how you continue to adapt.
Bob Goodwin:On emotional intelligence, I think that you know, and self-understanding would be like three really key things. So like, how do you take something that's kind of squishy, and like when I'm interviewing somebody, and I think resilience would be very near the top of the list, right at the top of the list, because of all the change that's happening, the unpredictability of that change, that being able to find people who are resilient is really, really key. And then, thirdly, on this contribution, motivation, why do you care about this role and this company and the people that we seek to serve? And because that passion, that desire to make a difference again will get you through that. That will drive a lot of innovation, but again they'll also you're a undergird the resilience piece too, and everything doesn't go exactly right.
Bob Goodwin:I'm not bailing because I actually care about what we do here and want to make a difference. You know I can't teach tall and fast, johnny, like, when somebody shows up with some of those kinds of qualities, I'll figure out if you're a tight end or a linebacker or whatever. But when you show up with some of those innate qualities, you're building, I think, the dream team that will get you. This is sort of Jim Collins get the right people on the bus first. They'll figure out what seat they need to be in, they'll help you figure out your strategy. But you've got to get the right people first, then the roles will define themselves. So any kind of parting thought that you would want to leave listeners with on this whole skills space and the end of resumes.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:Yeah, like the parting thought is, we have a birth rate problem in our country. We also have an immigration problem in our country, and not that immigration is bad, but that we haven't sorted it right. So we have a talent shortage that is coming. If we think we have a war for talent now over the next decade, we're really going to see it. Gen Z millennials didn't have as many children, so we've got to rethink how we exclude talent from the talent acquisition process these days, because it's going to hurt us. We're not hurting, I mean, we're going to hurt them in the short term, but we're going to hurt our workplaces if we don't think differently about what talent is and change the way that we've thought about the requirements and I love it again. We need to figure out how to end the resume as we've known it and used it in the past. Amen.
Bob Goodwin:Awesome. Well, john, as always, thanks for letting me kind of opine on that one a little bit. It's, just, as you can tell, a topic that is very near and dear to my heart and I think ultimately serves the best interests of both the employers and the candidates when done well. So with that, everybody, thank you for taking a few minutes out of your day to listen to the Work Wire and to watch us. If you're watching us on YouTube, please subscribe. If you're listening to this as a podcast, which many of you do, please rate and review. We want to make sure that as many people who are interested in these kinds of topics can find us. But in the meantime, johnny, have an amazing weekend. That's right?
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:Is it W's for weekend or the W's for?
Bob Goodwin:Yes, yes. That's what it's for Awesome. Thanks everyone. Bye-bye.
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