The Work Wire
SHRM CEO Johnny C. Taylor, Jr. and Bob Goodwin, President at Career Club, host a lively conversation on how the latest news impacts all things work-related.
The Work Wire
Google Sit-ins - The Work Wire
Join Bob Goodwin, President of Career Club, and Johnny Taylor, CEO of SHRM, in a compelling podcast where they explore strategies for fostering civil and respectful communication in the workplace. They'll dive into effective methods that both employers and employees can use to ensure that all voices are heard and respected. Tune in for expert insights on enhancing dialogue and building a more collaborative work environment.
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Bob Goodwin:Hello everybody, this is Bob Goodwin, president of Career Club and joined by my good friend Johnny C Taylor Jr, the CEO of SHRM. Welcome to another episode of the WorkWire.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:Johnny, how are you? I'm excited to be here this morning. I've got so much to share with our audience, especially given the topics that you and I've chosen for this week.
Bob Goodwin:No, we've got some really, really good topics and, as usual, we just sort of dive straight into the deep end of the pool. For better or for worse, I usually end up just getting wet. You come out looking like a rose, but I can't even swim, so whatever, no the topic today is is very serious.
Bob Goodwin:This is about what happened with Google employees who are protesting project Nimbus and I assume most listeners are going to be familiar with this, but just a little bit of background is Nemesis is $1.2 billion contract that Google's got with the Israeli government and it's in their cloud business and so obviously a very, very big contract for them, given everything that's going on with Israel in Gaza, more broadly, in Palestine now we've got Iran jumping into the mix is that there are Google employees who believe that Google is basically complicit in genocide, given everything that has happened with Gaza and all the deaths in Gaza, and while we're certainly not going to try and parse out you know who's right and who's wrong in that conflict or anything like that.
Bob Goodwin:There's a very serious workplace issue that happened. So there I think it was in three different campuses Seattle, san Francisco and New York where there were protests. There was a sit-in in the cloud computing president's office, thomas Kurian. There were arrests being made after they were given ample warning. Like you guys need to stop doing this. There were terminations as a result of this, because creating an unsafe work environment as well as disrupting the ability to get work done. So that's kind of the backdrop, and so with that, johnny, what's your sort of hot take on?
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:that, oh my gosh. It is, in a word, insane. At this point I mean and I don't really do I get to it. I agree with you, lynn. So it's really important to say to anyone listening this is not a we're not attempting to decide who's right and who's wrong from a moral standpoint, morality standpoint conversation and anyone who drags you into it's a red herring, because we should be clear that is neither Bob nor Johnny's.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:Frankly, it's not even our job to decide. I don't think I'm qualified to do it and I don't think it would be any good, because these things are debatable. What isn't debatable is the sovereignty of the workplace. That is just a non-starter, is just a non-starter. We know that employers have the right to subject to not discriminating against people or treating people in irresponsible ways of determining the terms and conditions of employment. We have an obligation to protect our employees, our diverse, really important point, our diverse employee population. So here we are.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:I can only imagine being the head of hr that day when you know some group of employees and again, be clear, they have a right to feel the way they do about the topic, right, but to decide that you're going to bring that into work and disrupt the workplace, to affect productivity, to effect, because you don't agree, it's a, you know it's, it's just not tenable, it's truly untenable and I was actually very pleased to see, uh, google finally take the next step.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:I think they, they, they did what they could to try to convince the employees to go back to work or leave Right, but you can't occupy the CEO or the president in this case's office because you disagree with a purely commercial business transaction. And so this notion that and we talk about this a lot that says I think 36, 37% of employees have said they will leave their employment if they don't agree with the CEO's political point of view. It's like what? So something bizarre is happening, where the idea is as the employer, you have to 100% agree with me, you have to do and act in ways that are consistent with my value system, and if you don't, back in the day I would just quit. Now I stay and raise hell. That's not cool.
Bob Goodwin:Yeah, and that is what's happening. And so, in this case, let's just sort of walk around it a little bit, in the sense that you know from the Google employees, these protesters are activists. Perspective yes, you know. Yes, the company is made a commercial decision that they're going to provide these services. The employees feel like, yeah, but it's my IP, it's my sweat that is contributing to that. Like you're now putting my fingerprints on something that I think is to the extreme unethical, don't I have a right to say something about that?
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:You have a right to say something in the right form and you have the right to quit. Because we have to remember when an employer pays you yes, it is your sweat and I am paying you for that. I don't want to get, you know, the lawyer and he starts to call work for hire Right. Ultimately, I pay you to deliver this product. It is now mine and I'm going to use just a really interesting example. So I engage someone to come to my house and hey, name it, make a piece of furniture for me, put in curtains, whatever. And then I decided to go, take them and donate them or sell them to someone you don't like or agree with. You know you can't just go snatch it down, you can't take it back. I paid you for it.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:So, as an employee, you fully understand that when you come to work and you produce product at the employer's behest and your agreement, you are then paid for it. The transaction is over. What happens from that point forward is really none of your business. Now you can decide you don't like it. You can voice your concerns through social media. There's media, media, traditional media, there's all of that and ultimately, ultimately, you can quit and say I'm no longer going to sell you my brain, my services, but the idea that I can come in and disrupt your workplace is again. That doesn't work.
Bob Goodwin:That's not how the math works yeah, and like it seems like what we see on the news whether it's stopping traffic right, so we saw like you know, golden gate bridge and the airports in Columbia University.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:I said Columbia University this last, like the students taking over.
Bob Goodwin:Or like environmental activists ruining works of art and things like that right, Gluing their hands onto a Picasso or whatever they're doing, that you can't really be a believer in the cause unless you do something that's very extreme. The only way to break through the clutter and be heard is to do something extreme. So I'm just playing the game as it's been presented to me. If, again, I'm just sort of, for a a moment, trying to get inside the mind of somebody that thinks that it's OK to barge into the president of the cloud computing unit at Google, sit down and say no, I'm not leaving because you have to listen to me.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:Yeah, we have you know you can't use the phrase that you shouldn't, but you know the old phrase there's something to be said. For the inmate to run into prison Like this is now out of control, and again there are appropriate mechanisms to share your displeasure right, got it. But the notion that you can trespass, there are laws that prevent you from taking over a piece of property that you don't own and ultimately we are employees at will. Right, so you can work or they can not have you work. It's an employer, an employee has the right to walk away again and say I just don't want my sweat, my efforts to be used for this, my sweat, my efforts to be used for this. So this is, to me, not difficult for us to handle. It's just here's what really strikes me as odd, as I thought about this a lot of last couple of days. So thank you for agreeing to talk about this is.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:You know, we have for so long said we want diversity in the workforce and what we quickly are determining is that people don't want diversity. They only want diversity that they agree with. So why don't you just accept that there are different points of view and if, on balance, I decide that the organization not on a single issue, but over time you look and say this organization is kind of not in keeping with how I see the world, then leave. That means you're not aligned with the organization. Take your services and sell them somewhere else. Now again, this doesn't apply to illegal, unethical, those sorts of environments. I'm not suggesting you should just deal with sexual harassment or not, because you're being paid. I'm not suggesting that. I want to make very clear. I'm talking about issues where you just don't agree with the company's business perfectly legal and ethical business decisions who they want to sell their stuff to. Then you should move on, and we have just gotten too far.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:It's interesting, though, that I mentioned Columbia University intentionally, because I think this is what's playing out, and you and I talk a lot about the diversity in the workforce.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:We have young people and tech is typically they skew a little younger in age, who have been allowed to take over the president's office at their college campus, been allowed to block the entrances, the gates to Columbia University, who've been allowed to beat on a gate and declare I am Hamas right, and there are no consequences directly to those folks.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:That generation then comes into the workforce and decides they're going to continue this behavior that we allowed them to engage in for the prior four, five or six years. That's a little bit of the disconnect. At SHRM, we talk a lot about employment to I'm sorry education to employment, and this is exactly what we're seeing is we're seeing people who've been allowed to engage in certain behaviors, in some cases all the way K through 12, and then K through 16, the additional four years or so after high school, and then we expect them to come into the workplace and understand that that's not how the world works. How do you react to that? Because I think that's our problem is people think this is okay. I cannot imagine and perhaps I'm just getting old, but Bob, you can't imagine disagreeing with your CEO and thinking you could occupy his or her office.
Bob Goodwin:No, but you know, I mean, we're a country that has a history of civil disobedience. Right, that has done.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:Not at work.
Bob Goodwin:Okay, not at work.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:You can.
Bob Goodwin:Well, I don't know what do you consider a labor strike?
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:Well, and that's a very that is for representation, that is not. I disagree with the company selling oil to ex no, fair enough.
Bob Goodwin:Here's the thing I agree with you, johnny, that you know there's a generation that is coming through the university system, but even that that aren't. Again, this is my point about you know, the, the vitriol that has just sort of been laced into the system, that that if you are not like extreme angry, you know, and really showing all your colors, then you're not really a believer. So so I, I have to do extreme things, and the problem with extreme is it needs to get more extreme to still be extreme. And so, you know, in the university system, which is a different topic, but there is generally this kind of antipathy for you know kind of structures as they exist today. So therefore, you need to use your expression, raise hell, because that's actually your moral duty is to go raise hell, right, and if you're not doing that, then that's actually unethical, because now you're just sitting on the sidelines and that makes you complicit to these issues that actually and I'm role-playing with you for a second they're not debatable, whether it's climate change.
Bob Goodwin:I'm picking on two things for some reason, but climate change, I'll pick three Climate change, donald Trump and Hamas, israel Right, so there's no debate there. That's just right and wrong, johnny. That's evil and good and I'm sorry, I'm not going to sit on the sidelines while the company engages in evil.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:Well, and my response is well, first of all, how, how, how? It's amazing what you think of yourself such that you can decide what's right and wrong. There are a few cases and you think about most issues. Most issues are in the gray Now.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:Pedophilia, like there's some things that aren't questionable, right, but whether or not Trump should be president or not is great. It's not right or wrong. We know that climate change is occurring, but whether or not a business should decide not to engage with another business or another country because of its position on climate change is not right or wrong. In other words, we've decided very quickly and this moral superiority has come through where I'm right. I'm the decider of what's right and wrong, and if you don't agree with me, you have to pay for it, and I can't just tell you that I disagree. I've got to show you that I disagree and I got to get other people to show you, and if that means disrupting everything, I'm willing to do it.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:You mentioned it. I mean the notion of some single mom who needs to go to work to feed her kids, trying to get across the Golden Gate Bridge, being stuck. She can't get to work, her kids can't get to school, she may not be able to pay rent this month because you're making some point like that is not cool. There are ways to absolutely share your frustration, your disagreement, your point of view on any topic, and that is true of our country. That's the beauty of our democracy. But there's time and place. There is a way. You know Sherm right now has a we've committed to this 1 million.
Bob Goodwin:I wanted to hear you talk about this. Thank you Because this is it.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:Civility can be shown through a conversation or your conduct. I think it's fairly uncivil to take over someone's office. I mean, let's talk about it, right? I don't agree with you at work, so when you come back, I sit in your cube and I won't let you sit down. What? Because you don't agree with? Come on, stop it. And again, that's where I think we really really got to pause, step back and say are we acting, Are we speaking civilly toward each other? Are we respecting each other and the dignity of your fellow human being, even when you don't agree? So it's interesting. It's actually pretty easy to be civil to people when you agree with them, when you have experiences, backgrounds, et cetera right. The challenge is being civil when you don't.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:So I've been working with on an initiative with the governor of Utah, Governor Cox, about disagreeing better. It was so well said. I love the name of his initiative. We need to disagree better and that really is at the crux of this conversation. It is okay to have a point of view that perhaps your employer, in this case Google, should not in any way help aid the country of Israel. If that's your point of view, that's okay. How can you disagree better, and I would submit to you taking over an office, refusing to work, trashing your employer, I mean, they're just things that don't make sense to me and, as an employer and someone who represents a ton of employers, no one thinks this is a good idea, because tomorrow, what's the topic? Right, Exactly.
Speaker 1:You got 200,000 employees. On any given day, someone could be taking over the CEO's. One thinks this is a good idea because tomorrow what's the topic?
Bob Goodwin:right on exactly that you got 200 000 employees.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:On any given day, someone could be taken over the ceo's office because they don't share the company's point of view. That doesn't make sense. It's not not something we can't operationalize.
Bob Goodwin:That well, you know, gosh, there's so many things on diversity and back to your point on that. Like you, can never please everybody, that's never going to happen.
Bob Goodwin:So what you said on boards. So I'm curious, you know, given the reality of what's going on and, as you said, the feeder system seems like it's going to provide more of these inputs Can you see yourself in a board meeting, johnny, where we've got the opportunity to do business with Israel? Just use that as the example and somebody on the board goes we can do that, and that's a very lucrative contract. We're going to piss off a lot of our employees by doing this. So you actually make you really take into account what's the reaction going to be to taking this decision.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:Yes, and we actually. This happens a lot, a lot more than we can imagine. If you remember, famously, the NBA when they were asked to pull out of China a couple of years back, and that was a significant decision when we right after post-George Floyd, various organizations were trying to decide with whom they will do business, what communities Like. This is part of our existence and will be forever. What we've said is this is where you hear me talk a lot about culture and a company's values. Companies and boards, in particular, should help the organization become real clear. You hear me talk a lot about culture and a company's values. Companies and boards, in particular, should help the organization become real clear. Call it cultural clarity about what our values are, our value systems, and that will help largely dictate when you will do one thing versus something else.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:Again, it's not driven by. 5 percent of your employee base doesn't like it, because you won't ever make a decision. If you're looking to your point about 100% commitment from your employees, it's impossible to achieve that. What you should do is say this is who we are, and I'll give you an example. There are companies, for example, who sell military goods, A lot of our defense industrial complex companies.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:I get it, no one likes war, but I also get it that you've got to protect the homeland. Those are really mission critical organizations, and so what we need to do is be clear with people coming in the door you are working for it. Name it Lockheed Martin, boeing, name the, you know Raytheon, and this is what we do. And if this doesn't work for you, if you don't like war and you don't like war games, then you shouldn't work here. That's the board's job is to help an organization be really, really clear about what it does, and then HR's job is to make sure that that culture is made very clear on the way into the organization. I'll talk about HR people.
Bob Goodwin:Yeah, go from there.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:So I think I think it's an opportunity for us. You know, of course I see an HR opportunity in everything, but but I think it's so. With one hundred and sixty one million people going to work every day in the US, this is and it's half, almost of the US population. Right, this is the conversation. Like we have to go back to companies and, as boards, say this is who we are, this is who we aren't, and then say that to employees and the employees have to make a decision on the way in no matter how much you pay me, I don't want to work here. See, here's the real statement to me. I you know it's like don't tell me that you love me, show that you love me. If those people feel so strongly about Google, quit. If you say I just won't work for a company that has this $1 billion contract and you're so great at what you do, you'll find another job.
Bob Goodwin:How does that sound? I know you don't like that.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:No, no, no, no, no, no. I want to let that sit for a minute. I just yeah. But really you, really you, and it's not to be threatening, it's just real, would I? There are people who are serious environmentalists, who won't ever go work for a, you know, a petroleum company. There are folks who won't, who, for example, on the very hotly debated topic of abortion, won't go work in an abortion clinic. If you are a devout.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:They will work in a state. They don't work in a state, right. So I got it Like there is nothing at all wrong. And I hope everyone's hearing me. We are not suggesting that you shouldn't have sincerely held religion, religious or otherwise societal beliefs. It's just you can't. You can't require everyone else to agree with you and you can't go into an organization and make them.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:I have a good friend who works for a large what's that company? Tobacco company, oh my gosh, it's like. And it was so funny I got to tell you. It's just a funny story. So we're sitting in a meeting, at a board meeting Funny that you mentioned this At a board meeting and we imagine around the board there are people from the alcohol companies, so spirits, beer and alcohol companies, you have cigarette companies and oil companies around the table and, of course, one of the employers, one of the board members, who at that time interestingly, I'm going to get to the punch of it worked for McDonald's. And so the McDonald's guy says you know, we should really question whether or not these, we should have affiliations with, all of these vice, oh my gosh, okay, and it was hilarious and you could just see them like what are you talking about? So finally, one guy gets really aggressive and he says let me check on something, let me stop. The major cause of health problems in America is obesity.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:And salt, leading to hypertension and therefore strokes and heart attacks. He said and you do it, you supersize it every day and you grab children, mr McDonald's early. You get them hooked on this stuff. So how dare you sit here and judge us about? You know from whom we do. You know who do we do business with, because you're going to get on this period.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:So it was a really fascinating conversation to watch because it gets to the crux of this. Like it's so easy to get and say I'm better than you or we do less harm to the world than you do, and pointed to other people, that is. And they pushed back very significantly and said I'm sorry, it doesn't work that way. You have a point of view If you want to be here, be here, but if you don't, you don't. And the board made a decision that this is who we are and the people who don't want to do business with us on account of this, or the people who don't want to work here because they don't want to work for a company where there's a tobacco person on the board, then they need to move on right so let me ask you this, because there, this isn't going to go away.
Bob Goodwin:Like you said, there's going to be a new topic tomorrow, whatever it is. Um, there's people who are actually inspired by what they saw happened with Google and like, hey, how do I do this at my company? I'm willing to take one for the team, for my cause at my company right, it seemed to be my ex-company. What counsel would you give the HR companies to to as a practical matter, like how to, to try and defuse this, even anticipate it, right? So they're not even being reactive, they're being proactive to this, so that that it's going to happen. It's just a matter of what shows up on our newsfeed. What can an HR person, an HR leader, listening to this podcast, take away as one, two, three things that he or she could do?
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:Right. So, number one, you made the big point, and that is get proactive. Any HR person who believes, oh, that's a Google problem, that's not my problem, is being naive, because it's going to come to your neighborhood, I can assure you, especially because some people are willing to lose their jobs, some people are willing to be arrested for it. Right? So the idea that I I am a little concerned about what message this might send to the broader workforce. So the first thing is that you and your team and we talked about boards, your board, your senior management, your ceo you have got to sit down and decide sort of how you're going to do with it, as opposed to reacting in the moment when something like this confronts you.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:Secondly and it's really important you've got to prepare your communications and action plan right now. You need to have a plan so that when this happens, I'm ready. So start with like who are we values? And then here's our plan no-transcript happened and then make clear to your employees what the expectations are at your company. Yeah, so that people know you can do this, but this is how we're going to react. And then employees know. So you will have someone who pushes this system and undoubtedly this is not the first or the last time we're going to see this kind of behavior.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:But your employees need to know what is going to be acceptable and what is unacceptable in your shop and you can't wait until you just you can't wait until it happens to you to message that I think you should say upfront this is what we will and will not tolerate, and then decide if you want to work here so that when it happens it's a non-event. If someone decides they're going to go outside and play outside of the box within your shop, then you take them outside of the box. It's just that simple and that's what I think the big takeaway for so many of us is to reinforce, remind in a non-threatening way our employees that we absolutely we like and value diversity of perspective and opinion. How and when matters, and we know for sure when in our workplace does not matter and how you do it taking over offices and does not that won't be accepted. Do that and then I think we're on our way. But that's the only thing you can do is be prepared for it when it happens.
Bob Goodwin:And last last thing have you seen examples of companies that have done a good job of creating communication channels for the broader? It's like, you know, there's like a I don't know if it's an erg exactly, but it's something that it's like no, we get it. We want to hear all these opinions. Right, we value the diversity of opinion, but we're going to create a forum where that can happen in a more civil, you know, structured way, so that it doesn't just become this tinderbox and blow up like it did at Google.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:So a couple of things. One that would be nice, but that's really really complicated and it's time consuming. Why? Because every one of your 50,000 employees has a hot button issue. So how much time do you devote to all of these? Every day there's a conversation being had about something, and you know that that is, frankly, debatable To your point. It could be climate change, it could be abortion, it could be DEI. You could spend all day having employees convene to talk about hot button issues, and there'll be a few times. I mean, george Floyd was a moment where the entire country stopped and kind of had had, and we were all sitting at home during the pandemic, so we had a racial reckoning moment. Every once in a while. There are times like that.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:But I think we have to be careful about getting into the business of using the work time, the work day, to have employees discuss everything that matters to them. It's just not feasible. And where do you stop when you start one then? And is it one session or is it two sessions? So does everyone get 30 minutes a day to come and talk about what's on their mind and like it's really hard to manage what you're describing?
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:I think what I'm hearing and this is not definitive, but this is what I'm hearing employers say is listen, you can, within the right constraints, like you can, talk about what you want to talk about. Obviously, in your personal life, we want you to keep it civil, but work is largely for work. I mean, that's kind of what we want you to do and ultimately, here are, here's what we stand for, and you've got to decide whether or not you want to work here or not. So I don't know this. This is a it's a weird answer that I'm giving you. I understand having and trying to create places for people to have these conversations, but you got 40 hours on a work week and if you have people engaging all day on things that matter that are not at all directly related to your company's productivity and profitability, I just don't know how you, how you control that, yeah, I mean I, I don't disagree with that.
Bob Goodwin:There's sort of the what are your favorite lines? I know, bring your whole self to work, right, right, and do you really want your search and bringing her whole self to work? Maybe not, if you have one right for that matter.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:Right, but.
Bob Goodwin:But you know, the it's just an acknowledgement of where we are as society and there's got to be something between. Ain't got time for that because that's just not practical. And, holy crap, we just had a mushroom cloud at our home office because something very major just blew up in our workplace.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:But Bob, I mean.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:I get it and I totally agree with you. I think what I'm struggling with is so, after the Google, should every employer now stop and give some period of time, some forum whether it be virtual or in-person for their employees to talk about this? I just don't know how realistic that is. I mean, who you know think about? It's one thing. Sure, I could give you an online portal or whatever for people to go in and throw their, but that's called all social media. That's not social media. You can do that.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:Why do I, as an employer and I've got to moderate it, I've got to make sure that people aren't creating hostile environments for this. I mean, you're just adding a whole layer of responsibility and obligation to an employer. And last night, you know you had the bombs that hit Iran. Ok, so what are we supposed to talk about this morning? I don't know if they hit the bomb, I don't know the details of it, but the strikes, let's call it that. So that's a big issue for a lot of people. Should we right now, out of our eight-hour day on a Friday or whatever day of the week it is, say okay, some percentage of my employees are going to really be bothered by this. Let's give them a forum during the workday to talk about this? I don't know.
Bob Goodwin:That's the answer. So let's just kind of revisit and we'll tie it up with. This is clearly communicate the mission and the culture of the company Right At a very senior level and make that very well known across the organization. Be proactive, not reactive of. If this happens, what are we going to do? What's the playbook? What was the third point, johnny, because I missed one To tell your employees.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:Yeah, I mean, you've got to make clear so that everyone understands. If you do this, this is what's likely to happen on our side. So this is where you work.
Bob Goodwin:Yep, okay, awesome, johnny. Again we tackle things that like don't have a definitive answer there's not a period at the end of the sentence here at the end of this episode. What I just so appreciate is your willingness to kind of jump into the middle of it and at least help people kind of unpack this a little bit and be able to go back to their office. And how can we think about this in a helpful, constructive and, I would add, civil way right? So pleasure as always, johnny, thank you.
Bob Goodwin:Likewise Awesome Thank you guys, everybody, for taking a few minutes out of your day. If there's topics you would like to hear us discuss, we'd love to hear them from you. You can communicate with us at the WorkWire. Thank you so much for that, and Johnny, awesome.
Johnny C. Taylor Jr.:No, that's right, the WorkWire. I love it All right Thanks everyone Bye-bye.
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