In this enlightening episode of The Work Wire, hosts Johnny Taylor Jr. and Bob Goodwin welcome Indian business titan Shiv Shivakumar to explore the evolution and future of leadership. Shiv, with his extensive experience from PepsiCo India to Advent International, offers a deep dive into the transformative traits required for today's leaders.
The discussion unfolds across four segments, starting with how leadership has morphed in our digital age, to practical strategies for thriving in a VUCA world, promoting a culture of accountability and growth, and finally, the impacts of technology on the workplace. Tune in for a timeless masterclass in leadership from a seasoned expert.
In this enlightening episode of The Work Wire, hosts Johnny Taylor Jr. and Bob Goodwin welcome Indian business titan Shiv Shivakumar to explore the evolution and future of leadership. Shiv, with his extensive experience from PepsiCo India to Advent International, offers a deep dive into the transformative traits required for today's leaders.
The discussion unfolds across four segments, starting with how leadership has morphed in our digital age, to practical strategies for thriving in a VUCA world, promoting a culture of accountability and growth, and finally, the impacts of technology on the workplace. Tune in for a timeless masterclass in leadership from a seasoned expert.
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Bob Goodwin:Welcome everybody to another very special episode of the Work Wire. I am Bob Goodwin, the president of Career Club, joined by my usual running mate and co-host, johnny C Taylor Jr, the president and CEO of SHRM. Today we are doing something new. We have a guest on the work wire. We are very pleased to welcome Shiv. Shivak umar, Shiv, welcome.
Shiv Shivakumar:Thank you for having me here, both Bob and Johnny. It's wonderful to be here.
Bob Goodwin:I want to just very quickly because, like I said, we've never done this before, so we've picked a really good guest to have for our very first one, johnny. So let me just kind of get folks who may not be familiar with your background grounded, shiv. So Shiv's a luminary in the realms of business and leadership. His illustrious career spans over several decades, during which he's held pivotal roles in leading multinational companies, including as a group executive, president of Corporate Strategy at Ajit Chabirla Group, chairperson and CEO at PepsiCo India, and he's currently serving as the Operating Partner at Advent International, a leading global private equity firm. Shiv has a reputation as a transformational leader and is known for his insightful approach to navigating complex business landscapes and fostering innovation. His contributions extend beyond corporate leadership as he's a sought-after speaker, mentor and author, sharing his wisdom on leadership, change management and the future of work. Shiv, wow, welcome.
Shiv Shivakumar:Thank you very much, Bob. Thank you for those kind words.
Bob Goodwin:So we could probably spend a season's worth of episodes unpacking all of that. Well, let's do it. Let's do it, Bob. Thank you for those kind words. So we could probably spend a season's worth of episodes unpacking all of that.
Bob Goodwin:Let's do it let's do it, bob, we can do that too, but today. So for episode one then, of the Shiv series, we're going to do it on leadership, and you know, johnny, you speak very often on the topic of leadership. Your community are leaders within companies and policy in academia, shiv. I wanted to sort of tee this up with a fairly broad question of just how leadership has changed from back in the day, where it might have been more military style leadership, to how it's evolved into the digital world that we find ourselves in now.
Shiv Shivakumar:Yeah, great, great question, bob. So when I look at the digital world that we live in today and I ask myself, how is the digital world different from the physical world, from which a lot of the leadership theories, like the great man traits theory or things like that, came through, fundamentally, the digital world, the speed in a digital world, is of a different order, number one. Number two the emphasis on data, because you collect so much data in a digital world, is extremely different. Third, business models change on a daily basis in a digital world. We had fixed business models in a physical world, but digital models are very flexible, very innovative in a digital world.
Shiv Shivakumar:The next thing about a digital world is that you have to work with the ecosystem. The ecosystem becomes extremely important in a digital world. In a physical world, you had one or two partners, but in a digital world you could have maybe 1015 partners. You know to work and hence you have dependent growth strategies, not independent growth strategies. And finally, I would say, in a digital world, capabilities keep moving forward all the time. Closer to the consumer and not to the factory or the production site. Digital takes you much closer to the consumer and not to the factory or the production site. Digital takes you much closer to the consumer than ever before. And my final point on how digital world is different today, bob and Johnny, is that in the past, in the physical world, we measured trust on a yearly basis. In a digital world, trust is a daily exercise. You win trust or lose trust almost on a daily basis. So those are the differences which I see fundamentally in a digital world, and that's what leaders need to grapple with today compared to the past.
Bob Goodwin:And so how have you seen I'm sorry, john, just very quickly, how have you seen the kind of most important leadership qualities? Have they changed or are they the same, just packaged differently? Or utilized differently.
Shiv Shivakumar:Yeah, Johnny, you wanted to say something before.
Johnny Taylor Jr.:No, let me tell you, this is why I'm so simpatico with Bob. That was exactly my question. Fundamentally, the digital world may have changed. We may have gone from a non-digital to digital. But what about? Are there enduring leadership qualities? Do you still essentially lead the same way, or no?
Shiv Shivakumar:Yeah, great question again. So the first point I'd like to make on the change in leadership is in the past you were the champion of your company and you're fine doing that role. Today, when you're part of an ecosystem, you have to manage change and champion the ecosystem, and that is what your ecosystem partners would expect of you that you contribute to that ecosystem. Number one. Number two in a digital world, everything which happens in an organization happens horizontally, it doesn't happen vertically. So if you want collaboration, if you want collaboration, if you want agility, you want speed, you have to drive horizontal collaboration, have slas, etc. Etc. All signed off properly.
Shiv Shivakumar:Third, in a digital world, your employees are getting information from everybody. Horizontal information sharing is a lot more in a digital world. In the physical world, the boss spoke and everybody took cue from the boss. In a horizontal digital world, everybody's speaking to everybody else. So you need to communicate very, very effectively. Next thing in a digital world, in terms of what changes, the number of layers in an organization is shrinking. So earlier you had maybe seven to 10 layers, now maybe you have four to six layers. So managing that in terms of communication, in terms of energizing etc. Is very different.
Shiv Shivakumar:And finally, a digital world is also a social world, bob. In a social world, your reputation, your words matter. For example, one of the serial CEOs yesterday CREL serial CEOs yesterday said have reputation, your words matter. For example, one of the serial ceos yesterday, c-e-r-e-a-l cereal ceos yesterday said have cereal at night because it's the cheapest food. And then he got. He got plastered all over media. So in a digital world, you have to be extremely clear about the words you use. So there's a great emphasis on choosing the right words, because it can just blow up on your face.
Bob Goodwin:Johnny, what do you say? The internet's forever?
Johnny Taylor Jr.:right and unforgiving. I mean, that is right at once right and it's funny. I'd love to follow on that. It's really interesting. I have so many things I want to talk to you about, but one speak to the issue of trust. You alluded to it earlier. Trust, specifically with your customers, but with your employees, particularly in this horizontal world, and I love the way you describe it. You're right, we often say top down, but that's really vertical, but this is because sometimes it went up as well. But this horizontal landscape that you've described is really, really insightful. But how do you develop trust and how important is trust? We always talked of, spoke of trust with our customers. What about trust with our employees?
Shiv Shivakumar:Yeah. So when employees look at trust, johnny, the way they think about trust is you, johnny, the ceo will not hurt me when I am vulnerable. Right, that is trusted as trust. Okay, so in their most vulnerable moments, you know they feel, they should feel that you have their back and you support them. That's very important, and the only way a CEO can do that is to listen to what the troops are saying, what people are feeding back to them, in an honest way, not to cut off negative feedback Number one. Number two, to be authentic and communicate with them very clearly where you stand and why you stand.
Shiv Shivakumar:For example, if you're having layoffs, explain why the layoffs are necessary to save the company, not to save your job. What is happening, what is forcing us to lay off and where is the light at the end of the tunnel? Is this an ongoing exercise for five years or is this a one off? I think people expect more honesty from their CEOs and the more honest you are, the more trust you get. That's what. That's what I found. And finally, where we find trust to be actually a little nebulous or question mark is first time managers. Yes, first time managers are always a challenge because they don't seem to imbibe the full qualities of the organization, and they want to do things their way, and hence they're not pulling the diversity of the team, and so behavior of first-time managers is at odds with developing trust with your people.
Bob Goodwin:Johnny, would you build on that point please, because I know that you know and I'm going to brag on you for a second. You just got through testifying with the Armed Services Committee and one of the things that you talked about was frontline managers, and I'd love if you could build on Shiv's point please.
Johnny Taylor Jr.:Yeah. So, Shiv, going back to the vertical world of the past, when we would take the best accountant, technically speaking, and make that person crown them the manager of accountants. That's what we do, and whether they had people management skills, whether they even liked people wanted to be bothered with people, didn't matter. If you were the most tenured and you happened to be the most competent at the technical job, you were oftentimes made the leader, and what we have I'd love your reaction to.
Johnny Taylor Jr.:But what we're hearing is people say the people manager might be someone who is 25 years old and has only been in the workplace two or three years, but it's because he or she can build trust followership, which is another term that, Bob, I want you to elaborate on but that that's the person, not the seasoned 20 year technician, because that person might be great at the job but not at gaining trust and building trust with people. And I think our fundamental reality is HR. Folks have come to realize we have allowed and I'm going to use that term and we've allowed our hiring managers and senior types to promote people into jobs that they're either not qualified to do. In other words, you can't motivate and build trust with people, or we have not prepared them to do, meaning we've not invested in people management capability building with those people before we throw them into the job.
Shiv Shivakumar:Yeah, I would say in reaction to that, johnny, is that look at moments of trust in an organization. Okay, moments of trust become very important or people sense it when there is discussion around transformation and layoffs. And I've covered that, the other moments of trust. There are two other moments in an organization which are very important. One is appraisal time okay, and the third one is promotion time. When people see that appraisals and promotions are fair, then there's more trust in the system. When they see that promotions and appraisals are unfair, then they don't trust the system. And many times have encountered this. When people we say, look, I don't think you will cut it, you know, maybe you need to look at, et cetera, they'll say but why didn't my manager tell me this in the last three years?
Johnny Taylor Jr.:That's right.
Shiv Shivakumar:Why was he sugarcoating this? Ok, where is it written in my last appraisal that I had to improve in these areas or had to deliver better? So honesty in appraisals and honesty in feedback and honesty in promotions is absolutely crucial in building trust.
Bob Goodwin:So one of the things that you've written about I think maybe we can segue into this you use the acronym VUCA, but you don't use it in the traditional sense that a lot of listeners would know volatility, uncertainty, complexity and ambiguity. You've got a different definition of VUCA that I think has a lot of these qualities that great leaders and emerging leaders would benefit from. Could you share that with folks? Yeah?
Shiv Shivakumar:Yeah, my issue with VUCA is it just describes something, right, okay, it just describes it. It doesn't tell you what to do. So what has VUCA become? If you look at books, if you look at presentations, everybody says we live in a VUCA world. Now, in my experience, it's a shorthand for saying I'm in trouble and I'm sure you understand, but that doesn't solve the problem. That's what everybody is doing. You know? You know what? We live in a wooka world, right? So it's like saying look, tomorrow is going to be sunny, but the weather forecaster hasn't told you. Should you take an umbrella? Should you take the sunscreen? Should you do this? Should you wear walking shoes? What is he asking you to do if it is sunny out there, right? So I thought long and hard about it and for me, v stands for versatility. If you want to face the world, which is volatile, you need to be versatile, otherwise you cannot face the game.
Shiv Shivakumar:You is for uncomfortable. You have to get uncomfortable as a leader to say I don't know everything. There. There is no definitiveness, there is no black and white, there are lots of shades of gray and I'm happy to deal with it. That's the second part of uncomfortable. C is for collaboration, because nothing can be achieved if the whole organization doesn't pull in one particular direction, which is collaboration. And A is for agility, because in a VUCA world you have to be very quick off the blocks. If you're slow you'll get murdered. In fact, I say this in many a session. Bob and Johnny, if you look at the last 25 years, no big company has beaten a small company. However a fast company has beaten a slow company. So agility becomes very, very crucial if you really want to succeed. So that's my definition.
Bob Goodwin:Johnny, any particular one of those resonate with you.
Johnny Taylor Jr.:All of it, and I'm one of those folks who, every time I get in front of a group, I talk about VUCA because, you're right, it describes the state of affairs and, to be fair when you reflect on it, it's true, we live in this world that is very different than, perhaps, times past and our employees sometimes need to be made aware of it. But Shiv nailed it. Now you've got to tell me, okay, what do I do in response to it. So I got it. I don't disagree that VOCA accurately describes our current state, but how do I navigate that? What can I do individually and as a leader to help my employees navigate it? So I absolutely love that.
Johnny Taylor Jr.:I'll be stealing that, by the way, because I think that's and I'll give credit Shiv I absolutely no, no, no, no, johnny's yours you should, and it's so funny If you see me looking down, it's because I was actually writing that down at the time, saying gosh, this is really really good, so I love it. I can't add anything to it because it's spot on. What about you, bob?
Bob Goodwin:Well, what I really struck me was this uncomfortable, yes, kind of contrasting the traditional definition of VUCA and yours, which is there's kind of a don't blame me. Like what do you want from me? Look how crazy it is out there. It's a VUCA world. So what do you want from me? It's not my fault, we missed our targets and we're going to get into accountability in a second where we can kind of pick up on this theme. But it's changing consumer preferences, it's the economy, it's not my fault, it's a VUCA world.
Bob Goodwin:The uncomfortable, I think, ties back into what you were talking about, john. You brought up the issue of trust, authenticity. It's like I don't know, like or even admitting a mistake, like I got this one wrong. We thought this was the right way to go. It wasn't. We're going to acknowledge that.
Bob Goodwin:I think for a workforce to hear a leader say I didn't get it right, it's not the economy's fault, it's not your fault, it's I'm going to own, we didn't get this piece of it right. And then you know, it's one of those situations. Like you know, when it's an issue, you need a mirror. When you're giving credit, it's a window right. So if the problem, you know, I'm going to own the problem, but I'm going to share the credit with people and so the uncomfortable thing I think that's really from traditional leadership models. I have to be strong, I have to be the wizard, I have to be infallible to lead this group. I think the current generation, john and you talk a lot about this you know the current emerging generation they want authenticity. They kind of see through the BS of you know I don't have any challenges and they really gravitate. Vulnerability is a magnet for young people.
Johnny Taylor Jr.:It is. But, Shiv, I'd love you to react to it. It's funny. They are that group.
Johnny Taylor Jr.:This in particular, Generation Z, send mixed messages, and maybe we all do to some extent. So I want a leader who gives me confidence, especially in periods of those trust moments or those moments of trust that you, like you're getting ready to lay off. Yes, I want you to admit that maybe it was partly your mistake, but I still have to pay my rent next month. So, and if I'm one of the remaining employees, is this going to happen to me next year? So you know, we're constantly, as leaders and I hear this a lot from leaders like, on one hand, the employee who sits down at the performance review, another trust moment or moment of trust I want you to be honest with me. But then if you're too honest, I don't like that either, because I don't feel psychologically safe. I don't feel like you know. So, to be fair to people, managers out here and human resource professionals, people management stuff and leadership is so difficult because oftentimes someone says A when they really mean B.
Shiv Shivakumar:Yeah, yeah. My own experience in that regard, johnny and Bob, is especially with the millennials number one they want you to be relevant for tomorrow. Yes, yes, if I stand in front of them and I give them examples of what I did five years ago, they say come on, there's a hogwash right.
Shiv Shivakumar:tell me your point of view about what's going to happen in the next three, four years yes whether it comes true or not is not important, but do you have a point of view about the future? Because, remember, they have a career, long career, ahead of themselves. Number one. Number two they expect you to be fair. That's the other thing in all situations. That's the second one.
Shiv Shivakumar:Third one is they keep asking themselves if I'm working under shifa, who has 20 years experience, can I condense those 20 years experience of shiva and learn under him within six months? Right, I don't want to be here on the seventh month, but can I juice out everything that he knows? And this thing? And finally, all employees, especially millennials, work for cv value. Is their cv value improving as a result of working for you? As a result of working for you, as a result of working for the company? If they believe the CV value is increasing, they will flaunt it. I work for Johnny Taylor on 10 projects. I work for Bob on 20 projects. I advise that's what they do, and my advice to leaders always is with millennials, shoot for respect and not popularity. If you want to be popular, then go sell ice cream, but with millennials, you must get their respect first. That's right.
Johnny Taylor Jr.:But, shiv, you said something that I'd love to probe on. So that last comment what about mutuality? So the employees who says I'm only working for CV value and I'm not going to be here seven months from now, so I'm going to extract everything I can. Why and good luck, because just as you will move on from me, then why don't we have some mutuality here? You want me for CV value?
Johnny Taylor Jr.:I want you to see you went to ILR or whatever you know, all these famous schools in India or Harvard in the US. No longer, when there's a almost like sports, like the funny thing I love about sports is they bring in a bumper crop of 18 to 24 year olds and you join the team, but when you turn 35, there are other younger legs and you don't expect me to remain loyal to you because I'm not going to be like. It's just if it's going to become that transactional, that those last two things that you described CV value and the fact that I'm going to extract as much as I can out of you as long as I'm here, with no expectation expectation, I'm stay longer what happens when leaders do the same thing? Is that not a fair deal?
Shiv Shivakumar:question, johnny. The first thing is the relationship between an employer and an employee, or a manager who's representing the employer and an employee should not be asymmetrical. If it is asymmetrical, you can never get that done. Okay, that absolutely critical. Next is we already do it. Like, for example, we have gig workers. Okay, we have outsourced many of our core activities and we've established, you know, global capability centers. We are on the path already to do it. And my simple representation of that would be if Johnny is hiring me and he tells me, shiv, this job is for one year, subject to your performance, subject to company's financial health, we could continue. You make up your mind whether you want to join us or not. If it is that clear, then it is absolutely fine to do.
Shiv Shivakumar:The issue happens when it becomes unclear and suddenly, in the middle of the tenure, you're told hey, you know what? We don't have a rule for you. Then the employee feels I had a trust and a bond with this company. Now that's broken. And then they go to Glassdoor and start doing this. You know, in Unilever, in the year 2001, we used to have an annual plan and our chairman globally just changed one word to get much more focused and he said you know what? This is no longer an annual plan, it's an annual contract. He said you will not have ap 2024, it will be called ap ac 2024. Okay, so a simple word change suddenly told people hey, you know what? I'm not being fired, but I'm very being clearly told that there's a contract that I need to deliver. Yep, you know. So that equation must be clear right in the beginning. Is my submission?
Johnny Taylor Jr.:And I agree, and so we violently agree, and that then gives you the mutuality right Absolutely. Now, Bob, we would say in the US we kind of have that because it's called employment at will.
Johnny Taylor Jr.:I was waiting for that it's not an annual contract. It is. You have a job today and you may not have tomorrow. That's created its own set of issues. Maybe you know employment at will literally is not good. Maybe it should be a year, six months, pick the period of time. But I get the point about the asymmetry and my point about mutuality, like, whatever the terms of this relationship are, let's make sure that we have it. Some would argue and I know there are many out there listening right now who'd say, yeah, but the bargaining power, like you, want me to trust you, but I don't. Necessarily I can't trust you. So it's not mutual. You can be out looking for a job, but I can't be looking out for your replacement.
Shiv Shivakumar:Yeah. And in treating millennials, Johnny, I would say treat them like volunteers, not employees. They're given a chunk of time to you. If you make the most of their talent in that time, they'll give you another chunk of time. Okay, treat them as volunteers. Please do not treat them as employees. They can leave any point, yeah.
Bob Goodwin:Yeah.
Shiv Shivakumar:I want to noodle on that one a little bit.
Bob Goodwin:And what also has been running in my mind listening to you guys is when companies are out there saying we're a family, oh yeah, and it's like no, we're not. Like I have a family and it's not the people who pay me, but that's actually. I love this annual contract kind of thing, because that really is the relationship and to say that it's different. And, John, I'm going to go back to your point about people speaking out of both sides of their mouth.
Johnny Taylor Jr.:Yes.
Bob Goodwin:Right, because there's so much you know, like I need the employer to do this for me and provide this for me, and provide this for me. And yet you know, from the accountability side and, shiv, I know this is something that you talk about. Maybe we can kind of get into it here. Johnny, we've done episodes on lazy girl jobs, quiet quitting this stuff, but I'm only willing to give you almost much less, and so there's another, in some cases, evidence of asymmetry. So, shiv, can you talk about accountability and mutual accountability?
Shiv Shivakumar:Yeah. So accountability for people. You know when you talk to employees what does accountability mean for them? It means you're holding them accountable for the result they were supposed to deliver or the goals they were supposed to hit. But all of accountability and all of business, as all of us know, is in a particular context. Things can go horribly wrong, things can go horribly right, things can go horribly right. So like, for example, a lifting tide lifts all boats, so does everybody get rewarded Equally? When the water goes back, recedes, then all the boats ground. So is that recognized at all?
Shiv Shivakumar:So what people want you to be as a judge of performance and accountability? To say, have you taken the context into account? Have you taken all? Have you provided me with all the resources, etc. And the simplest way I figure out people who are accountable vis-a-vis people who are not accountable in their minds first, before I hold them accountable, is people who do not like accountability, externalize a lot. You know what. I could have done this, but Johnny didn't do his bit. I could have done this, but Bob's department didn't support me. So you just listen to their narrative at appraisal time. You'll find that more than 50% of the conversation is about blaming others.
Johnny Taylor Jr.:That's right.
Shiv Shivakumar:Now that kind of a person will not be accountable in any company, trust me, in any company. On the other hand, people will say, hey, you know what I could have done this better shift. If only I had reached out and asked Bob for help, if only I had tapped into Johnny's contact book, I could have done more. Now suddenly people are learning and saying I could have used the resources of the company far better to be accountable, even though I was short. So that's what I find amongst people who are accountable and not accountable Externalization. We shall be internalizing the deficit and saying this is what I could have done about it.
Johnny Taylor Jr.:I love that Bob is saying I know that's Johnny, speak Shiv exceptionally well said. In fact, this year at SHRM I've, even within my context as CEO of SHRM, I've told employees our guiding principles. The one that resonates most with me this year is excellence and accountability. And when you and to your point, being very transparent with people that this is the standard, this is the way we operate. But it's not just because, vertically, johnny the leader is on some ego trip. We owe it to our customers, absolutely Our members. We can't deliver and you think about it.
Johnny Taylor Jr.:I don't want to put a company on the spot right now, but Boeing, if you don't write's a classic example. Somewhere in their system and I don't know who, but somewhere excellence and accountability is not being upheld, which ultimately forget the stock price. It's putting people's lives at risk that you cannot allow that to be the culture in an organization. So, yeah, it may be rough on a particular employee who is not accountable, but it's for the good of society. People have to have confidence that when they get on a plane, that they're going to land safely on the plane. Save for stuff that Mother Nature and God does right. You can't have it because there was a sloppy employee.
Shiv Shivakumar:And also, I would add, johnny, one thing is that you know, accountability must lead to professional integrity, enhancing professional integrity. If I'm accountable, I'm enhancing the integrity of my functions, be it R&D in the case of Boeing, or be accounting, in the case of Enron. It has to improve the professional integrity of the individual and that function within the company and the industry.
Johnny Taylor Jr.:Yes, absolutely.
Bob Goodwin:Yeah, sorry, hot button word for me just to talk about integrity for half of a second. The thing that's interesting about integrity is you only know it when it's called into question. So if I'm at Enron and I'm the accounting department and Jeff whatever his name was who is the CFO, it's like, wait a minute, it's killing. Thank you, I can say that I've got. Integrity is very important to me. Great, give me an example of what's called into question. Or at Boeing, somebody in their engineering group or manufacturing group is like this isn't right, there's something not happening here. And having the courage to stand up and be accounted for and willing to accept the consequences of, you know, being unpopular or whatever might happen, but it could come at the cost of your job, and so I mean those are not small stakes. But that's integrity is when it's called into question. Otherwise it's just a word and it's easy to claim and very hard to prove.
Shiv Shivakumar:I'll give you my two cents on that, bob, which is when we talk integrity, most organizations understand it as financial integrity. That's common, that's par for the course. Don't even discuss it. My measure of integrity in an organization is the intellectual honesty that manages discipline. There have been companies where I could stand and argue with the chairman and say this is wrong, we are doing the wrong thing, and disagree with him, and still nothing would happen to me. And there were companies when you could not disagree with your boss. So when an organization lacks intellectual honesty, its managers lack intellectual honesty. What you get is psychophancy. When you get psychophancy, you actually get bad integrity. That's right.
Johnny Taylor Jr.:Institutional, institutional, that's right. That's when the collective of that, because it becomes your culture, right? You multiply that 10,000 times across 100,000 person enterprise and you've got a problem. You have a real problem. Yeah, that's what you say Johnny Go ahead.
Shiv Shivakumar:The examples of Toyota, Volkswagen, Enron, Boeing. They're all examples of what you just described.
Bob Goodwin:Yeah, you know Johnny of what you just described? Bob, yeah, you know, johnny, and it's just a great point. You often say the culture of a company is how stuff really gets done.
Johnny Taylor Jr.:That's right.
Bob Goodwin:And if intellectual dishonesty is how things really get done, that is your culture, irrespective of what, you've got placards all over the office on just back on accountability shift and and we can use this maybe to move into, uh, a topic that's near and dear to my heart, which is career development and personal brand. And you know, oftentimes when we're not, oftentimes every time we're working with a client and you know they're looking for their next role, whether they're working somewhere right now or in between jobs, and they want to talk about their CV. Having your job description on there is interesting, but what I want to see is what did you do?
Bob Goodwin:The language of business is numbers and the way that I say it is. Adjectives are not accomplishments. So I'm a strategic problem solver, I'm a creative thinker, blah, blah, blah. So I don't know what that means. Or you've got your job description on there. I mean, here's the dirty secret People get fired for not doing their job description, so that doesn't tell me if you're any good at it. But when there's, you know, hey, I actually understand how I contribute, whether I help the company make money, save money, mitigate risk. You know what some of those value levers are I would love for you to talk for a minute Shiv on how you coach people around, building their personal brand and thinking about career development.
Shiv Shivakumar:Yeah, so the first thing about this topic is that the role of a leader is to develop other leaders. Yes, first to develop them as a person and then, second, to develop them as leaders. One of the things which we can contribute as leaders to people who work with us is our ability to prioritize their work and their impact and output. Everybody wants to impress you. Everybody wants to do 20 things. Impact and output. Everybody wants to impress you. Everybody wants to do 20 things.
Bob Goodwin:Now, nobody is a combination of Superman, plus Batman, plus you know Spider-Man.
Johnny Taylor Jr.:You haven't spent enough time with Johnny, but okay, hey, and let me say, and Wonder Woman.
Shiv Shivakumar:That's right, absolutely right. And Wonder Woman. So what we need to tell them is look, I know you think you can do 20 things. Can you just focus on five things which have the highest impact? A lot of the time, when you need to develop people, you need to focus them on their areas of strength, and quite often people don't understand that. They take it for granted that the multiplier they get when they focus on their strengths is significantly higher. Next, I would say that when people are very good, give them tailwind. Just encourage them more to do better. Okay, don't give talented people headwind. They will hate it. Yeah, okay. So you need to give them a lot more tailwind. And when you have very talented people working for you, one of the reasons, one of the things that you, as a leader must do is to protect them. You must protect them in the good, for the good of the company, when they're doing the right thing. When you don't protect talented people, then the average drops dramatically.
Johnny Taylor Jr.:Absolutely. I tell you, too, that that first point that you made really resonates with me. I tell you, too, that that first point that you made really resonates with me Strengths. I have found more managers and, frankly, individuals who spend a disproportionate amount of time trying to take the things they're only going to be decent at. So they're, they take their, they spend their time working on the areas that are their weaknesses, their developmental areas, and while some of that has to occur, you're going to get the best return by maximizing your strengths, and most people don't know what their strengths are, so they spend most of their time working on the things that they'll never be great at.
Johnny Taylor Jr.:Like I said this to someone, I could spend 20 hours a day in the front of a basketball court and I could have LeBron James as my coach, and it's never going to work Like I'm just, that's not my strength. And I think in corporate America, I find more people trying to be great at something that's just not natural, it's not in their wheelhouse, and they will be so much better identifying what they can do really well. And they will be so much better identifying what they can do really well To your point, having a manager or leader focused on their tailwinds, not, because headwinds is all about telling me what I'm doing wrong and what I'll never be great at. It doesn't work for the person and it doesn't work for us as organizational leaders.
Shiv Shivakumar:Yeah, on development. The other interesting but sad fact is that in every appraisal we say these are development areas for Shiv or for Bob or Johnny, and after that what happens is most employees have outsourced the problem to their HR manager or to the leader. They expect you to do something. So one of the things I did over the last four or five years was to say these are your development needs, here's your budget. Okay, here's a budget of $1,000. You're free to choose two courses of your choice, but it's your responsibility now to develop yourself. It's not the responsibility of HR, it's not the responsibility of the boss, because they must carry the development on their back. You cannot carry that monkey on your back as a leader.
Johnny Taylor Jr.:No and one little nuance. I'd say HR needs to be a resource. To that person who doesn't know how to control, we can enable them. That's right. Yeah, that's the big deal is. We've seen and I've actually tested with giving people annually a budget to spend on their leadership development tool.
Johnny Taylor Jr.:The problem is some people don't know how to. In fact, I got to tell you this quick story. I was working with someone. I said you need a degree. So she went to a school that had a very poor program, horrible results, horrible curriculum, expensive, et cetera and she got a degree and at the end she came back and said I'm ready for my promotion. I was like, eh, not so much. The worst of all scenarios is she invested her time and her money and our money right as an organization and then at the end, she did so talking about a trust issue.
Johnny Taylor Jr.:So that's why I would say to my HR practitioners out here listening we do have a responsibility to help enable this decision. I love where Shiva said here's your thousand dollars and your career is ultimately your responsibility, largely because it's portable. You can take it with you, you know. Once you master this, you may do it for another company. Take it with you. You know, once you master this, you may do it for another company, so this is for your benefit and therefore you should take the lead on it, but with some help from learning management and professional development. Types in HR.
Bob Goodwin:Okay, so let's start to bring this one in for a landing here a little bit, since we're talking about bullying and a safe landing. You know, we started off talking about this digital world that we live in and obviously ai is the topic of the day in uh technology. Johnny, maybe you could actually kind of kick us off here a little bit, because your sherm's taken a very strong position on you know, ai plus hi equals ROI. If you want to explain that a little bit, then maybe that can kind of set SHIF up.
Johnny Taylor Jr.:Yeah. So November 29th of 2022 was when the world essentially started talking about AI, because that was the day that they unveiled ChatGPT and shortly there was a huge excitement. I remember that day oh my gosh, this can happen. But shortly thereafter the articles started going dark. Ai is going to take your job. 300 million jobs will go away, be meaningfully reconstituted, ultimately machines and robots, and there was a movie called Megan. In other words, the narrative went very dark very quickly and people freaked out.
Johnny Taylor Jr.:We realized the promise of AI, but didn't fully appreciate the threat to human beings' need to protect their livelihoods. You know, there are only two things existentially that threaten human beings it is a threat to their lives and to their livelihoods, and AI became the threat to their livelihoods in much the same way as COVID was a threat to their lives. So we've seen huge pushback and resistance from people to AI, notwithstanding all of the amazing benefits. And so we at SHRM sort of said we've got to reposition the messaging and change the narrative. And SHRM sort of said we've got to reposition the messaging and change the narrative that it's not AI alone. That's going to be what companies look at from an ROI perspective. It's AI plus HI, because there's some things that uniquely human beings will do that a machine will not do in the foreseeable future, right, if ever. So that thus came the narrative of it's AI plus HI human intelligence that will deliver the ROI of the future. Just that shift in language, that very basic calculation, has helped kind of allay some of the concerns and stop what we were seeing.
Johnny Taylor Jr.:On the legislative front. You talked about being in the Senate. Everyone now wants to legislate it away, and you may say why. Well, it's because voters are fearful of losing their jobs. They call their politician and say, oh, I know what it can do, but you need to slow it down because that threatens my ability to earn a livelihood. So that's the regulation. The regulators will shut it down, even if it's good, because they're voters as wonderful as the machine learning is and algorithms and all of that they don't vote. So volunteers have to listen to voters.
Shiv Shivakumar:Shiv you want to run with that? Yes, no, I fully agree with that and I think AI plus HI equals ROI is a fantastic concept. You should trademark it and push it I done uh, so on ai. I've been reading a lot uh from what's happening in the us etc. I was looking at some data from layoffscom the whole of 2023. The tech companies laid off about 720 people per day last year, yep.
Johnny Taylor Jr.:Double the prior year.
Shiv Shivakumar:Currently right now, in the first two months of 2024, they're laying off at the rate of 780 people per day. That's right. So that's roughly about a 10% increase. And the reason they are saying that they need to do that is to invest in new servers, invest in AI tools, et cetera, et cetera. I think this will have a cascading effect. Right, we are already seeing it in most parts of the world. Yes, I think AI will take out repetitive tasks. Like you know, mobile phones took out the telephone operator, right, because earlier we called a building to talk to Johnny. Now I call Johnny to talk to Johnny. The telephone operator is gone. Okay, so repetitive tasks will go away. I think all employees will go up the value chain and I think, finally, while the last word has not been written, we'll only get better. There will always be challenges of every new technology. We've seen this consistently. The stock market seems to love ai. Okay, the regulators are in mixed mode. The politicians certainly are worried yes, bingo, and that's the stock market loves nvidia, that's for sure.
Johnny Taylor Jr.:Go ahead, johnny, I'm sorry no, no, and microsoft and anybody else who. All you have to do these days is sort of mention AI. It's so funny to see companies now. If AI is not in your public material, then your comms people are failing you because you get a premium just for somehow mentioning.
Speaker 1:AI Right Shiv.
Bob Goodwin:I mean, it's really fascinating. So, shiv, let's kind of put a big bow on this. We've talked about a lot of things. We have talked about the enduring qualities of leadership. We've talked about the trust that needs to be built. We've talked about accountability. We've talked about technology. How would you put a bow on this whole conversation so that a listener walks away with kind of maybe one, two, three main takeaways you'd like for them to to have?
Shiv Shivakumar:yeah, uh, great, great question, uh, to you know, put about on this. The first thing is I did a very simple exercise. You know, as I was thinking about this session johnny involved and I think johnny alluded to this at the start I typed leadership into the search engine and I got, believe it or not, 6.2 billion items in 0.39 seconds. 6.2 billion. There are 6.2 billion items on the topic of leadership. I cleared it and I typed followership. I had 3 million.
Shiv Shivakumar:Now here's the problem. The whole world is fascinated with leadership. The whole world does not want to practice followership. I submit to you you cannot be a great leader if you're not a great follower. A great follower means doing things in the interest of the company and the boss and to say I will get this done, but speaking up whenever you believe that something is wrong. Finally, all of us must recognize that leadership is the ultimate responsibility. That's right. It is a responsibility all of us must carry. It's the burden we carry on our shoulders and in leadership is the journey which is the reward. It is not the title. We keep learning because the context keeps changing all the time. Tomorrow, we hope to be a better leader. Day after tomorrow, we can hope to be a better leader. There is nothing called you got 100 on 100 leadership. It's a journey and all of us need to go through the journey love that Johnny anything to add.
Bob Goodwin:drop the journey.
Johnny Taylor Jr.:Love that Johnny, anything to add Drop the mic on that Fabulous wrap-up shift that is. I mean, what do you say If I were to add anything? It's actually repeating something that you something as I've reflected on the last 40 minutes or so of this conversation, the way that you have now reframed the conversation about horizontal versus vertical, that will stick with me. I was just actually, if you saw me looking down, I'm writing notes because that really does stick with me that the nature of leadership is very much about. It's a horizontal approach versus what historically was vertical. That's well done. Horizontal approach versus what historically was vertical.
Bob Goodwin:That's well done, Shiv. Thank you so much. It has been a true privilege and educational. I've learned a ton of stuff. Johnny's making notes, so I can't wait to see all of his notes. But thank you so much for investing a few minutes of your time with us today here on the WorkWire. It's been great.
Shiv Shivakumar:Thank you, Johnny, Thank you Bob. I learned a lot, I enjoyed the session and I hope that I get to see you soon.
Johnny Taylor Jr.:Johnny.
Shiv Shivakumar:And I hope to interact with you, Bob. Thank you.
Bob Goodwin:Thank you so much, so to our listeners and viewers, thank you so much for taking a few minutes out of your day to join us here on the Work Wire. We hope you enjoyed today's session with Shiv Shivakumar and we will look forward to seeing you on the next episode of the Work Wire. Johnny, here we go, come on.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much. Check out careerclub for personalized help with your job search. Visit shrmorg to become part of the largest human resources organization worldwide.